TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[doady]

What's holding office development in MCC back is parking, plain and simple. Suggesting that transit has nothing to do with it is just ridiculous.

And no, subway is no guarantee that MCC would see office development. Personally I think the upcoming BRT and LRT would have a much greater effect.

 

[andrewpmk]

There are various factors that help suburban office development though. Low taxes are a necessity otherwise development will not occur. One subway line (or a commuter rail) will help a lot to encourage development while a second one running perpendicular will help even more. A LRT line might help somewhat, but much less so than a subway (e.g. the Hurontario LRT would undoubtedly encourage development in MCC, but I think that Sheppard needs a subway because the 401 is much busier than Hurontario/410 and because extending a subway with a light rail line is stupid). Good uncongested highways help, while severely congested highways are harmful. And so on.

 

[sixrings]

I think every city in the GTA by now has a city centre plan. A area they would like to see developed. Maybe to actually see office space be developed in these areas the cities should start charging significantly less taxes for city centre offices and increasing taxes for anything out of the city centres. Once a majority of office moves into each city centre then each municipality could rezone where the old offices were and try to redevelop them . This is not a toronto problem its a GTA problem and as a result its causing grid lock throughout the GTA. I joke to my wife whose office is near the airport that they should compensate her for having to work in no mans land.

 

[doady]

There are various factors that help suburban office development though. Low taxes are a necessity otherwise development will not occur. One subway line (or a commuter rail) will help a lot to encourage development while a second one running perpendicular will help even more. A LRT line might help somewhat, but much less so than a subway (e.g. the Hurontario LRT would undoubtedly encourage development in MCC, but I think that Sheppard needs a subway because the 401 is much busier than Hurontario/410 and because extending a subway with a light rail line is stupid). Good uncongested highways help, while severely congested highways are harmful. And so on.

I was making no comment on Sheppard, because it absolutely should be subway, a mode most suited for local service. For Sheppard and SCC, I think subway would have the most effect, as direct connections between SCC, NYCC, downtown are needed (Sheppard LRT wouldn't serve SCC anyways). Arbitrary forced transfers only segregate transit users in Scarborough.

MCC is different because it quite far off, I don't really see the point of it having a subway connection. The key is simply to reduce the demand for parking, and therefore the reduce the amount of land needed for surface parking, and I think the Hurontario-Main LRT, combined with the BRT and overall improved bus service, will already be enough for MCC, transit-wise, when it comes to office development.

 

[ssiguy2]

Although I don't think a total Sheppard Line is warranted , I do strongly support the idea of extending the line west to the new Spadina Line. The ridership will certainly grow significantly on Sheppard when Spadina is built. It also makes logical sense even if you support TC.
What are you going to have if the build TC to try to get from STC to Spadina which is basically a straight line....a mess and a very slow and inconvient one to boot. Take a bus north to Sheppard, transfer onto LRT, then transfer onto subway for 6 km then transfer onto a bus for 5 km then transfer onto Spadina to York.................god help you if you have to transfer again onto Finch.
By the time you are done all your transfers and having to wait for the next subway/bus/LRT the route won't be any faster than just taking one bus but will be a pain in the ass with the endless stream of transfers. At least connecting Yonge over to Spadina would take away a needless transfer onto a slow moving bus and make the line actually go somewhere. If they had any common sense they would end the Sheppard LRT at STC or atleast interline the route so half the LRTs go to STC and the other half continue east on Sheppard...............that would take another transfer out of the equation.
Just the fact that LRT mad Miller did not include LRT from Spadina to Yonge acknowledges that even he saw the inherent falacy of an LRT connection between the two. If they did go ahead with the dumb idea of LRT between the subways it would also cost nearly as much as the LRT stations would go underground at both subway stations anyway.
Ford will also have a billion bucks to play with for Sheppard and that would cover most of the distance between Spadina and Yonge.
For all Ford's inability to understand transit, a continuing of the Sheppard line to Spadina does make both transit and economic sense.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I do agree with the notion that intraline transfers are not desirable - my preference would be to see a Sheppard conversion into LRT vehicles so that you'd have one type of vehicles operating.

re: Spadina to Yonge

No offense, but even the RTES, which is the most pro Sheppard extension study - counted that out. It's not a "Miller thing".

AoD

 

[MetroMan]

I took the Sheppard line yesterday and observed that it is all cut/cover with fairly high ceilings throughout. I can imagine it being quite straightforward to converting the Sheppard tunnels to LRT with the ability to switch back to full subway in 30 or 50 years when the density there may begin to justify it.

There's a good case for conversion. The Sheppard subway loses $10M a year in operating costs, money that comes out of our city budget. A conversion to LRT would help stop the bleeding. An LRT line from Scarborough to Downsview could actually turn a profit for the line. An LRT from Scarborough to Don Mills could be profitable but we'd still be losing $10M a year on Sheppard because it would continue to require expensive operating costs.

I'm not an engineer but could existing tunnel infrastructure such as signals not be used? Laying tracks for the LRT gauge, ramping up at a shallow angle towards stations to align the LRT with existing platforms and then adding overhead wiring for its pantograph should fill all the requirements for conversion.

Judging from how long it takes to build an LRT from scratch, I can't imagine a conversion taking more than a year for the full line. Buses would serve Sheppard for that period.

In alternative, the Sheppard East LRT could be built first. Once in service, a section of the Sheppard subway starting at Don Mills could be closed for conversion with express buses filling the gap between LRT and Subway. As a section is converted, the LRT begins using the tunnel to the completed station until the entire line is converted.

 

[sixrings]

I took the Sheppard line yesterday and observed that it is all cut/cover with fairly high ceilings throughout. I can imagine it being quite straightforward to converting the Sheppard tunnels to LRT with the ability to switch back to full subway in 30 or 50 years when the density there may begin to justify it.

There's a good case for conversion. The Sheppard subway loses $10M a year in operating costs, money that comes out of our city budget. A conversion to LRT would help stop the bleeding. An LRT line from Scarborough to Downsview could actually turn a profit for the line. An LRT from Scarborough to Don Mills could be profitable but we'd still be losing $10M a year on Sheppard because it would continue to require expensive operating costs.

I'm not an engineer but could existing tunnel infrastructure such as signals not be used? Laying tracks for the LRT gauge, ramping up at a shallow angle towards stations to align the LRT with existing platforms and then adding overhead wiring for its pantograph should fill all the requirements for conversion.

Judging from how long it takes to build an LRT from scratch, I can't imagine a conversion taking more than a year for the full line. Buses would serve Sheppard for that period.

In alternative, the Sheppard East LRT could be built first. Once in service, a section of the Sheppard subway starting at Don Mills could be closed for conversion with express buses filling the gap between LRT and Subway. As a section is converted, the LRT begins using the tunnel to the completed station until the entire line is converted.

I always thought if Sheppard east LRT gets built when its finished a debate will occur and eventually the subway will be converted. I hope this is the case as I expect the SELRT to happen and like many of you I HATE transfers. I understand its part of transit but Id like to limit them where possible.

 

[rbt]

There's a good case for conversion. The Sheppard subway loses $10M a year in operating costs, money that comes out of our city budget. A conversion to LRT would help stop the bleeding.

Nope. Stations still need to be cleaned, track and tunnel walls inspected frequently, cracking concrete repaired, etc.

Either mode could have fully automated fare collection and faregates removed. Of course, you would still want security of some kind.

It doesn't even get much cheaper if you stop running trains because most of the maintenance still needs to be done unless you are willing to abandon it entirely.


The most expensive tunnel to operate by distance may be the Queens Quay tunnel if you adjust for lack of signals. The slurry wall construction method didn't work out well in that location.

 

[Tulse]

Presumably the only real reason to convert the whole line to LRT is to avoid a transfer, and I doubt that such convenience is worth the expense.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Metroman:

My preference in the conversion case would be to close Sheppard and have the work done concurrently with SELRT - the last thing you want is to open up a line from nowhere to nowhere and having to bridge with buses in between - and is there any consideration for linking Finch W with Sheppard - even tunneled, so that you can get a full EW line?

AoD

 

[sixrings]

Presumably the only real reason to convert the whole line to LRT is to avoid a transfer, and I doubt that such convenience is worth the expense.

Its not one transfer you are eliminating its TWO. one for sheppard east lrt. two for sheppard to downsview.

 

[GraphicMatt]

My suspicion is that the advisory panel will endorse an extension of the subway to Victoria Park. From there, there may be an argument to eventually extend another 3km to Agincourt GO, which is a logical terminus point from a network perspective.

 

[Paleo]

The report doesn't tell us anything that rational and objective persons don't already know. It's just wishful thinking to believe that having another rapid transit line to NYCC or STC would suddenly cause an employment boom.

 

[smallspy]

Its not one transfer you are eliminating its TWO. one for sheppard east lrt. two for sheppard to downsview.

And how many people actually take transit from somewhere east of Vic Park to Downsview Station?

From all of the trips that I have taken, not very many at all. And certainly not enough to warrant a subway.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.