News   Nov 07, 2024
 605     0 
News   Nov 07, 2024
 278     0 
News   Nov 07, 2024
 666     1 

TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

With fiscal responsibility and building the most transit for a limited amount of money in mind, is the Sheppard East LRT that important. Just tunnelling under the 404 eats up almost half the cost of the entire LRT line. Would a BRT be a more economical solution.

The tunnel under the 404 was an option to make transfers easier, avoid impacting traffic flows at the interchange, and there are costs associated with getting any vehicles space in the station fare paid zone and widening the bridge over the 404. The LRT could run on the street over the 404 like any BRT, it just wouldn't be as convenient. The economics of a BRT vs LRT comparison are strongly related to energy costs, labour costs, and tax assessment growth. Unfortunately the benefits case analysis reports that were performed didn't compare BRT, LRT, and subway which would have been useful. BRT works most well in areas with low labour costs and/or low ridership.
 
Of course, Rob Ford is not that kind of leader. He will rather start a messy public campaign to advertize his support of subways, without actually building any subways.

Of course. His plan was to build an underground LRT on Eglinton using street ready low-floor vehicles and build a true subway on Sheppard using fictional money. He paints the council decision as a cancelling of a subway but there was no subway to cancel... he wasn't building a subway. He must have a subway built and he wants the waterfront built faster but his commitment requires it to cost the city nothing or to make the city money.
 
From the Star, at this link:

James: The TTC subway report Mayor Rob Ford doesn’t want you to read

ce65322748a1bb5cd53cbc8eca84.jpeg

By Royson James City Columnist

Mayor Rob Ford has been sitting on a TTC report that shows job growth projections are so far off target in North York and Scarborough that it’s not advisable to build a subway linking the two centres.

Sources say Ford was given the analysis almost a year ago, after he demanded to know why the TTC wanted to build a light rail transit line along Sheppard, and not the subway it favoured 25 years ago.

The 11-page report, obtained by the Toronto Star, concludes it is ill-advised to build subways when job numbers, office development and transit ridership are so low.

“The world changed,†a source told the Star. “The mayor got the report,†but it has not gone public because “they don’t like the answer they got. The information is important because it explains why the TTC’s opinion is different today than in 1986.â€

For example, planners projected 64,000 added jobs would come to the North York Centre, near Yonge and Sheppard, between 1986 and 2011. In fact, as of 2006, employment had grown by only 800 jobs over the two decades, the report says.

Scarborough Centre, at McCowan and Highway 401, was forecast to grow by 50,000 jobs. Figures for 2006 reveal a net loss of 700 jobs and a total of 13,700.

The job picture reflects a less than stellar performance all across the city. The 1986 forecast estimated that by 2011 Toronto’s job numbers would increase by 670,000. Not so. Job figures from 2006 show a city-wide growth of just 70,000 jobs over the 20 years.

Latest figures (2010) show that instead of topping 1.9 million jobs, Toronto barely crept up to 1.3 million. Figures for 2010 show North York Centre numbers at 38,800 and Scarborough Centre at 14,700 total.

The numbers are a warning sign for those who would build a large-capacity subway to link the North York and Scarborough centres when the ridership is not there, the report concludes.

But the mayor’s brother, Councillor Doug Ford, would have none of it when contacted by the Star.

“Build a subway and people will come,†he said, refusing to consider TTC figures that show the opposite has happened along Sheppard.

“The TTC? Please, give me a break. They are just justifying union jobs. LRTs destroy neighbourhoods,†he said.

Besides the off-target job projections, other factors have conspired to disqualify Sheppard as a profitable subway route, the TTC report says.

• The Sheppard subway was projected to carry 15,400 people per hour in one direction at its busiest point in the day — the standard way of measuring capacity. In fact, it carries just 4,500. And even if it is extended from Don Mills to the Scarborough Centre, it would top out at between 6,000 and 10,000 people per peak hour, the report says.

• City council, bowing to neighbourhood pressure to scale down development, changed the Official Plan. Instead of encouraging skyscrapers and intense office nodes at major intersections, an Avenues plan was developed that disperses development along the main artery, lowering the heights of buildings but intensifying along the route, not just at intersections. Such a pattern favours LRT transit, which typically has more stops than subways.

• The office building market disappeared, taking jobs with it. Condos sprang up where offices were slated. Condos bring people, but they don’t necessarily take the subway to work because they work all over the GTA. If jobs existed in the Sheppard corridor, then people coming to the jobs would get on the subway in greater numbers.

• Private developers were supposed to build mixed-use developments at or near or on top of the subway stations. But experience shows numerous stations with developable sites “remain vacant for decades,†among them, Eglinton/Yonge, Downsview, Leslie/Sheppard, Eglinton-Allen.

• North York Centre was supposed to deliver 60 per cent of its travelling population to transit. In fact, it is 34 per cent. Scarborough Centre is delivering 21 per cent, not the 55 per cent promised.

• Many commuters were expected to travel between North York Centre and Scarborough Centre. The “employment nodes†didn’t materialize so the commuters had no reason to travel the route.

• Some 20 million travellers a year were expected to connect to the Sheppard subway from outside Toronto. Now the demand is pegged at “extremely limited.â€

The report cites global trends, lack of funding and improved LRT technology as additional reasons the TTC backed away from supporting subway construction.

“All these have combined to reduce the need and justification for very-high capacity transit like subways,†the report says.

One transit planner, speaking anonymously for fear of retaliation from the mayor, said:

“The world has changed. It’s not the way people thought it would evolve back in 1986. Employment — the biggest generator of transit riders — has not materialized in a big way. There are more than 30 per cent fewer jobs than envisioned.â€

Ford has said he will continue to push for subway construction on Sheppard and elsewhere. He says the public want subways, not light rail, which he derisively dismisses as trolleys.

And subway supporters like Gordon Chong, whose pro-subway report is being debated at city hall, says the TTC was strongly in favour of subways when it approved the environmental assessment on the Sheppard subway in 1986.

But the secret TTC report, dated just after Ford convinced the province to give him time to find money for the Sheppard subway extension, says that 25 years ago the subway was the “dominant form of rapid transit. Only four modern light rail lines existed in North America. Light rail was not fully understood and vehicle design was not fully evolved.â€

Since then, new light-rail lines have opened in more than 115 cities around the world; it has emerged as the transit mode of choice for routes too busy for a bus but not near the 15,000 per hour needed to warrant a subway.

Toronto does not yet have a light-rail line. St. Clair comes closest, but it stops too often, is just one car and can’t handle higher capacities.

Sheppard, even if built out to the Scarborough City Centre, will top out at 6,000 to 10,000 riders per peak hour — ideal for light rail transit, the report says.

Gary Wright, chief city planner, told the Star that either light rail or subways will do along Sheppard. But whatever mode is chosen, it should link North York and Scarborough, even if the development targets have not been reached.

Facts! We don't need no f***ing facts! That seems to be the Supreme Leader Rob Ford's attitude.
 
Wtf is with Doug ranting on about the TTC wanting LRT to justify union jobs? If anything his plan is more labour intensive, it requires more drivers to operate the buses for the LRT lines that won't get built and more maintenance staff for the underground tunnels and stations, and he should know this.
 
From the Star, at this link:



Facts! We don't need no f***ing facts! That seems to be the Supreme Leader Rob Ford's attitude.

The facts from that report probably don't take into account why none of the growth occurred. I'm sure much of the less than stellar growth can be attributed to a 5km subway line that goes nowhere and connects nothing. That's like saying Town A was supposed to grow by 20k ppl, but the highway to the town that was planned, was never built, and it remained isolated. Obviously nobody will move there or develop there. There's no incentive or advantage.
 
You might have a point if it was an isolated instance - but the fact of the matter is none of the regional subcentres planned in the 80s/90s really bourned out - MCC, Islington, SCC...even established nodes like Y+E saw pretty much no employment growth. Clearly it isn't from the lacking (or presence of) subways.

AoD
 
You might have a point if it was an isolated instance - but the fact of the matter is none of the regional subcentres planned in the 80s/90s really bourned out - MCC, Islington, SCC...even established nodes like Y+E saw pretty much no employment growth. Clearly it isn't from the lacking (or presence of) subways.

AoD

Not saying you're wrong AoD. I agree with your point. But, just throwing it out there couldn't it be due to the fact that downtown is by far the easiest place to get to, from wherever you are in the city, whereas the same cannot be said for many of these nodes? They're hard to get to, both by car and by transit. Look at Eglinton and Yonge. Unless you're coming from directly north or south, you have to take the bus across all the way from MCC or STC (even taking a car the Allen and DVP are far enough away). So while, yes, in that scenerio it's not a lack of (one) subway, but a lack of a multitude of transit options to get there. If you look at some of the suburban areas that grew quite a bit, they are easily accessible by car, from all directions (see Markham's technology park, accessible by 407, 404, and Hwy 7).

I think STC could very well see a tremendous amount of job growth if the Eglinton and Sheppard subways are built. You create the north east connection via spadina extension, and if the eglinton line is extended west to the airport you connect the western section.
 
Firms that operate in the suburbs don't make their locational decision on the basis of transit availability. MCC has a fairly centralized location, at the nexus of pretty much ALL major transit lines in the city and directly accessible by highway - and yet even then it saw absolutely no office employment growth. Building an X billion subway on the hope that employment will grow when pretty much ALL research indicates otherwise is not responsible public policy.

AoD
 
2 things are holding back North York Centre office development:

1. Taxes in Toronto are too high
2. There is no efficient way of getting in to North York Centre from the east and west. The 401 is severely congested and the transit consists of a short subway line and overcrowded buses.
 
Similarly I think that MCC office development is held back by: the lack of rail service in MCC, and the fact that Airport Corporate Centre (where most of the employment growth is) is closer to Toronto and to Pearson Airport.
 
MCC isn't in a high commercial tax jurisdiction, and as mentioned before, it is at the centre of all local transit systems (with probably a higher catchment population than the Sheppard line, I would imagine) - and yet still no office development. How do you explain that if your thesis is correct? Are you saying that somehow for offices to develop you need a rail line? And then there is Meadowvale - which in spite of its' transit inaccessibility and non-proximity to anything, turned out to be an area of major growth area for offices.

AoD
 
Last edited:
suburban offices are concerned about taxes and parking lots the size of football fields. Toronto would have to reconfigure their tax system to reward companies that build along transit lines.
 
I think that if you want transit oriented development you have to have rail service (subways or high frequency GO). MCC only has buses, which means that employers want lots of parking, which means they locate in ACC instead which has surface parking everywhere because underground parking is expensive to build. If a subway were built to MCC then I guarantee that office buildings would get built there as long as taxes remain low.

North York Centre had a lot of office building growth in the 1980s, but fizzled out after amalgamation when taxes went up. The difference is that it has a subway, and the traffic on the 401 wasn't as bad in the 1980s.
 
Also as I say ACC is faster to get to from Toronto (take bus #35) than MCC (take bus #26). I don't understand the attractiveness of Meadowvale though. It is horribly inconvenient to get to from Toronto even with a car.
 
And yet, it didn't stop offices from developing in MCC pre-90s, when there are even less transit options - but according to you, even one subway line doesn't guarantee anything - you need two. re: ACC - I'd be curious to know a) where those works at ACC lives and b) what proportion of them actually use public transit. I have a feeling it will be relatively minor as part of the mode split. All this just helps to dispel the notion that somehow suburban office developments are driven by the presence or absence of subway or heavy rail lines by and large - but more by other factors.

AoD
 
Last edited:

Back
Top