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TTC: Other Items (catch all)

How do drivers rocket as fast as possible on Line 1 with ATC? This makes me suspect the origin of that "experience".
Before the Toronto Rocket, the T-1s and H-series on Line 1 were indeed rockets by comparison. Do you not remember? The Toronto Rockets don't even hit 80 km/h, they're capped at 75 km/h... This is what they are referring to. If you opened that link you would see it's from a post from a very recent cab POV of St Clair West to Glencairn. If you search their post & comment history on their Top 1% r/TTC account, it's got plenty of cab views and a claim that they'll post Line 5 POVs after opening too. Stay tuned if you still question the veracity of their statements. Not the first time you've doubted TTC operators (or even accused them of lying, before outright personal attacks and inevitable mod intervention in the case of Priority 1 procedures...) Seriously, why bother discussing things on a forum, if actual TTC operators get shouted down and made to feel unwelcomed by rank amateurs.

Doubt all you want, but Line 1 hasn't operated at its theoretical scheduled speeds since the Line 3 derailment, and even then its theoretical average speeds are slower than its ATC-less predecessors. See how Line 2 is operated in comparison, total stationary time at empty stations can be as low as 8-10 seconds in my experience, and Line 2 is accelerated and braked much more aggressively. Line 1 is babied to keep maintenance costs down. Line 2 trains are pushed hard since they know they'll be replaced in 10 years or so. My recent timings of Line 1 have been 3 to 7 minutes late between Finch and Union.

The TR trains are too heavy for the tracks they run on? [...] Line 1 will remain slow so as to not cause any further damage the tracks. Hopefully the TTC is cognizant of this when they placed their order for the new trains on Line 2 and they will be lighter.
The stainless steel body panels should've been a dead giveaway ;) Genuinely don't know what they were thinking going from aluminium to stainless steel, new ASME crash standards maybe? I doubt it though... Just sounds like typical Toronto transit ineptitude. Instead of meeting stricter standards with better design, they switch to heavier materials. See Williams F1 team as of late.
 
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The TR trains are too heavy for the tracks they run on? This is the first time I'm hearing this. Very disappointing.
I actually don't know why that would be the case. According to wiki there isn't even that much of a weight increase for the TR (34.2 tons) vs. T1 (33 tons) or H6 (32.6 tons). There's a bigger weight difference between the H6 vs. H5 (30.4 tons) vs. H4 (26.2 tons).

Suddenly I'm no longer a fan of the TR trains.
Only took 15 years, lol

After the Line 2 fleet is replaced, will we see the TR trains begin to be phased out and replaced with similar trains on Line 2?
The TRs should retire in the 2040s, while the last of the current order should be delivered by around 2035 or so. This leaves a gap of just over 5 years. I doubt they'd start replacing the TRs early by piggybacking off the completion of the T1 retirement, but I wouldn't mind if they do (much better than the TRs getting a life extension instead).

H-series on Line 1 were indeed rockets by comparison
Exactly.

since they know they'll be replaced in 10 years or so
Hopefully a bit less than that (more like 7 years).
 
The TR trains are too heavy for the tracks they run on? This is the first time I'm hearing this.
Perhaps it's obvious BS? There may or may not be track problems caused by the TR but the issue isn't the vehicle weight.

A quick look up suggests that the T1s weigh 33.1 tons per car, while the TRs weigh 34.3 tons. That 1.2 ton (3.5% increase) in weight is insignificant. A bit more perspective, at peak load, the 183 passengers would add about another 16 tons. While the extra 60 at the theoretical (but likely impossible) crush load is another 5 tons.

Meanwhile the cars the subway were designed for, were only 17 metres long instead of 23 metres long. BUT each car weighed 38 tons. So the load per axle was significantly higher than the current equipment.

WearyInspection5396 is full of it. I don't know people fall for such obvious fake news.

How do drivers rocket as fast as possible on Line 1 with ATC?
Before the Toronto Rocket, the T-1s and H-series on Line 1 were indeed rockets by comparison. Do you not remember?
I remember that when someone used to ask a straightforward question here, that people who didn't give TLDR "answers" not answering the question, but instead addressing a different issue not raised in the post they replied to.

Meanwhile, I'll go back to enjoying the T1s running at 80 km/hr between Chester and Broadview.
 
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Perhaps it's obvious BS?

A quick look up suggests that the T1s weigh 33.1 tons per car, while the TRs weigh 34.3 tons. That 1.2 ton (3.5% increase) in weight is insignificant. A bit more perspective, at peak load, the 183 passengers would add about another 16 tons. While the extra 60 at the theoretical (but likely impossible) crush load is another 5 tons.

Meanwhile the cars the subway were designed for, were only 17 metres long instead of 23 metres long. BUT each car weighed 38 tons. So the load per axle was significantly higher than the current equipment.

WearyInspection5396 is full of it. I don't know people fall for such obvious fake news.
-----------------
Once again our resident expert on all things in the universe has settled the debate with 0 cited sources...
I look at these presumptuous posts and just laugh---> "[The TTC operator is] obvious fake news" et al--->(Anything counter to my views is fake news or gaslighting)
Rolling Stock
Wheel Diameter (new)
Tare per Car
Empty Weight per 6-Car Train
/24 = Axle Load
Est. Contact Area (per axle w/ 2 wheels)
Est. Avg. Pressure
G-1 (steel)
30 in​
85,525 lb
513,150 lb (calculated)
21,381 lb
~0.319 in²​
~67,100 psi​
G-2 (aluminum)
30 in​
73,452 lb
440,712 lb (")
18,363 lb
~0.288 in²​
~63,800 psi​
G-3
30 in​
76,720 lb
460,320 lb (")
19,180 lb
~0.296 in²​
~64,700 psi​
G-4
30 in​
82,776 lb
496,656 lb (")
20,694 lb
~0.312 in²​
~66,400 psi​
M-1
28 in​
59,900 lb​
359,400 lb (")
14,975 lb
~0.240 in²​
~62,400 psi​
H-1
28 in​
56,515 lb​
339,090 lb (")
14,129 lb
~0.231 in²​
~61,210 psi​
H-2
28 in​
56,425 lb​
338,550 lb (")
14,106 lb
~0.231 in²​
~61,180 psi​
H-3
28 in​
56,425 lb​
338,550 lb (")
14,106 lb
~0.231 in²​
~61,180 psi​
H-4
28 in​
57,724 lb​
346,344 lb (")
14,431 lb
~0.234 in²​
~61,600 psi​
H-5
28 in​
67,110 lb​
402,660 lb (")
16,778 lb
~0.259 in²​
~64,800 psi​
H-6
28 in​
72,000 lb​
432,000 lb (")
18,000 lb
~0.271 in²​
~66,400 psi​
T-1
28 in​
72,960 lb​
437,760 lb (")
18,240 lb
~0.274 in²​
~66,700 psi​
Toronto Rocket (steel)
28 in​
75,508 lb​
205,500 kg (~453,045 lb) (published)
18,877 lb
0.280 in² (est. reference point)
~67,400 psi

So the Toronto Rockets do have the highest average contact pressure (2/3rds of calculated Hertzian contact stress), due to it being the heaviest rolling stock on 28 inch wheels. That’s without even accounting for differences in train capacity, load factors, and aggregate passenger weight between the past and today.

Furthermore, even a 1% increase in contact pressure per trip translates into larger-than-1% increases in accumulated damage, due to the sheer number of daily trips (300+), further accumulated 365 days a year. It's a classic case of cumulative fatigue damage. An analogy is if you eat at a 1% calorie surplus for your weight every single day for a year, a 200 lb person would gain about 2.6 lbs, after 10 years their weight grows to 228 lbs. Not a 1% gain anymore. Still, the 1% pressure increase would accumulate more proportional damage than the 1% calorie surplus gains in weight per year: there are 300+ daily cycles on Line 1 in each direction, versus 1 daily cycle for calorie surplus. Contact stress leads to fatigue and cracks, which dominate long-term maintenance costs, unlike axle load, which primarily drives lower-cost routine wear.

Assuming what WearyInspection said is true, it's just as possible that the T-1s and later H-series were overweight 'for the rails' when loaded, considering that the Rockets were adopted 10-15 years ago. Surely much of the long-term damage to the tracks happened before that.

A TTC operator may not be omniscient of all things TTC, but they are more credible than a forum veteran.

And again, this entire exchange is a distraction from the central point: regardless of vehicle minutiae, Line 1 is demonstrably operated slower today than in 2021, and slower still than decades ago. That the Toronto Rockets have the highest pressure is congruent with WearyInspection’s explanation of RSZ whack-a-mole for lower speeds, among other reasons.

Sources:

For the well read, the implication is obvious:
How do drivers rocket as fast as possible on Line 1 with ATC? This makes me suspect the origin of that "experience".
Before the Toronto Rocket, the T-1s and H-series on Line 1 were indeed rockets by comparison.
You mistakenly assumed that WearyInspection meant "rocket as fast as possible" with ATC. T-1s and H-series ran without ATC; they also operated at higher average speeds, thus answering your question. That erroneous assumption, and reflexive dismissal of any narrative counter to your own, overlooks that T-1s and H-series were running on Line 1 just over 10 years ago, while ATC was fully enabled in 2022. Not being able to read between the lines is far from a universal problem on Urban Toronto. Had I directly addressed your mistaken assumption, would I not be met with the usual rain of insults? Misleading, lying, gaslighting etc...

It's not gaslighting to point out mistakes, like those in a person's arithmetic when they can't even do division to derive the population density from an area and its population that they themselves cited...
 
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Perhaps it's obvious BS? There may or may not be track problems caused by the TR but the issue isn't the vehicle weight.

More likely, the lack of maintenance (due to chronic underfunding of the TTC) has led to problems that are exacerbated by weight, like erosion under track beds, etc. and a driver (who isn't an engineer) doesn't understand the difference..
 
You're posting screenshots of comments from Reddit so maybe don't get too snarky...
As I've addressed, that person is Top 1% on r/TTC and has lots of cab POVs of Line 1 (because they are an operator). They have more credibility on what makes Line 1 slow or fast than someone who can't be bothered to read or do basic arithmetic (dozens of threads, versus dozens of people) and accuses TTC operators of gaslighting on priority 1 procedures to the point that threads get nuked.

I don't know about you, but I do not have the audacity nor the shamelessness to tell an operator what is or isn't supposed to happen during a priority 1. Especially when they're directly citing passages from the TTC rule book.

If you look at the previous page, where I posted the screenshot first, and our recent post history, you'll see me getting chased for the past week across multiple threads by the same person, trying time and time again to prove me wrong like it's their life's mission.

You're also free to disagree with me on any of these points, I won't accuse you of lying, gaslighting or worse ;)
 
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Once again our resident expert on all things in the universe ...
Please be civil.

Rolling Stock
Wheel Diameter (new)
Tare per Car
Empty Weight per 6-Car Train
/24 = Axle Load
Est. Contact Area (per axle w/ 2 wheels)
Est. Avg. Pressure
G-1 (steel)
30 in​
85,525 lb
513,150 lb (calculated)
21,381 lb
~0.319 in²​
~67,100 psi​
Are saying that I'm wrong, and the Gloucesters didn't have a higher axle load?

From parsing the table, your case appears to be is the higher contact area because of the larger wheels? For the rail head perhaps --- won't do anything for the rest of the system. The big issue we keep hearing about on the Bloor to Eglinton section of Line 1 is trackbed.

But even for the rail head ... if that table of yours is correct, then it was designed for a pressure of 463 MPa, but 465 MPa is too heavy?

(I"m not sure the point of calculating the whole train weight, and then going back to axle ... columns 4 and 5 seem unnecessary to me ... but if there's any importance to this (and I don't think there is), then the mass of a G1 train is 684,200 lbs not 513,150 lbs. But it cancels out because a G1 train has 32 axles, not 24.)
 
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(I"m not sure the point of calculating the whole train weight)
It's to maintain congruity for the A>B>C calculation steps, Toronto Rockets' weight is only published in 6-car formations. The others only have published 1-car weights.
But even for the rail head [...] then it was designed for a pressure of 463 MPa, but 465 MPa is too heavy?
If you have the time to read about the G-1s, you'll find that they were incredibly overweight compared to customer specifications. The system at the time certainly was not expressly designed for the G-1's weight. This led to the G-2 and G-3 being redesigned and rushed in within 2 calendar years of Line 1 opening, which was also due to higher than expected ridership. The later G-Series were revamped to save several tons, in part by using more aluminum. I would not put it past the TTC to normalize deviance and think heavier trains were ok for their outdated ballasted sections when they procured the Toronto Rockets. If they had the capital budget, they would've fully switched to ballastless by now. See quote at the end of this post.
Are saying that I'm wrong, and the Gloucesters didn't have a higher axle load?
I agree that it had a higher axle load, but the contact stress was lower. See the above chart and sentence below:
Contact stress leads to fatigue and cracks, which dominate long-term maintenance costs, unlike axle load, which primarily drives lower-cost routine wear.

For the rail head perhaps --- won't do anything for the rest of the system. The big issue we keep hearing about on the Bloor to Eglinton section of Line 1 is trackbed.
Contact stress absolutely does affect the rest of the system, including the trackbed, ballasted or otherwise. It usually matters more than axle load regarding damage progression and maintenance costs. Regarding how badly a farmer’s tractor compacts a field, what matters more, how heavy the tractor is, or how much PSI is exerted through its tires (i.e., how that weight is spread over the contact area).

Contact stress is calculated from axle load and other variables. Contact stress is how the axle load is concentrated into a tiny area. Axle load is exerted through a contact patch, which creates contact stress (pressure). It's not the axle load itself that wears anything down. However, axle load does set the baseline for trackbed loading (ballast and ties), but contact stress governs rail damage, which in turn drives the dynamic forces that actually destroy ballast and ties. Furthermore, it is much cheaper to maintain & fix ballast and ties than maintaining and repairing rail.

This axle load vs. contact stress thing is almost about semantics. The Toronto Rocket will induce more non-vehicle maintenance costs than the long-retired G-1s, as well as the T-1s etc... Where TRs theoretically save money is for vehicle maintenance, as the trains themselves are much more reliable.

Contact stress + load cycles--->rolling contact fatigue is detected through ultrasound and eddy current testing. This is done to find cracks and chips in the metal rail that may not be visible to the human eye. RCF is remedied by expensive rail grinding and welding.

Feel free to look up how expensive it is to deal with RCF.

1769897106159.png




"Construction proceeded smoothly until the weigh-in of the first completed cars. The cars tipped the scales at 40% in excess of their estimated weight. The cars weighed 85,525 lbs compared to the estimate of 60,900 lbs. Some quick calculations revealed that the traction system could handle the higher weight, but modifications had to be made to the braking system to compensate for the additional load. Some hasty weight reduction measures were able to bring the total weight down by a full ton, but only after the first 30 cars were already substantially constructed on the assembly floor. This grave weight miscalculation would dog the cars for their entire operating life."
(I"m not sure the point of calculating the whole train weight, and then going back to axle ... columns 4 and 5 seem unnecessary to me ... but if there's any importance to this (and I don't think there is), then the mass of a G1 train is 684,200 lbs not 513,150 lbs. But it cancels out because a G1 train has 32 axles, not 24.)
You are right, I overlooked this making the chart, the G-series cars were shorter, heavier, could run up to 8-car consists. But like you said, axle count per train is the same, so it doesn't affect the subsequent numbers.
 
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If it's a contact pressure issue, then the solution is going back to 75-cm wheels with future orders - and perhaps 8-car trains, if that causes issues with the longer cars. Or 9-car trains, that use up the entire platform, similar to Montreal, now that ATC and stopping accuracy is a non-issue.

Though I have my doubts that T1s are fine, but TRs are bad, given there's plenty of issues on Line 2, as we've seen recently. I think this is more about 30 years of poor maintenance.
 
I think this is more about 30 years of poor maintenance.
Yes exactly. It's only made somewhat worse by heavier trains. I think it's fair to say that even with much lighter trains, the "woefully inadequate" old inspection methods (visual only?) and underfunded maintenance would've lead to slow zones.

Though I have my doubts that T1s are fine, but TRs are bad
The T-1s are not fine. (See previous posts below). My hypothesis is that the five train specs from M-1, and H-1 through H-4 were actually compliant with the ~60,000 lbs average pressure that the old sections were originally designed for in the 1940s. All five were below 60,000 lbs weight. It's only with the H-5 that air conditioning *edit @81-717 * and chopper controls were added to subway cars, which added 10,000 lbs. I am sure the added electricity and maintenance costs associated with the weight & A/C were seen as a worthwhile tradeoff.

My guess is the TTC just normalized this deviance, and decided to procure progressively heavier rolling stock. Given that every pound of extra weight only translates to ~1/3rd of a pound of pressure. Example above: 56,000 lb train = 60,000 PSI, 76,000 lb train = 67,000 PSI.

Very dumb to go heavier, when modern rolling stock trends lighter: and more importantly, towards wider diameter wheels. There really is no good reason for sticking to 28 in wheels instead of say 33 inch. Other dimensions can be the same, given the existence of same floor height trains with 33 inch wheels. The first carbon fibre subway train also debuted last year.

The cars weighed 85,525 lbs compared to the estimate of 60,900 lbs.
Assuming what WearyInspection said is true, it's just as possible that the T-1s and later H-series were overweight 'for the rails' when loaded, considering that the Rockets were adopted 10-15 years ago. Surely much of the long-term damage to the tracks happened before that.
I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have money to fully replace defective rail, they just mill down the problem spots, then weld in metal to fill the gaps.
 
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It's only with the H-5 that air conditioning was added to subway cars, which added 10,000 lbs
I wonder how much of the extra weight came from adding the AC vs. the chopper controls. H6s added even more, probably due to force-ventilation of the traction motors.

Interesting side note, in order from heaviest to lightest, it's H6, H5, M1, H4, H1, H2. Lots of unexpected overlapping in this order.
 
I wonder how much of the extra weight came from adding the AC vs. the chopper controls. H6s added even more, probably due to force-ventilation of the traction motors.

Interesting side note, in order from heaviest to lightest, it's H6, H5, M1, H4, H1, H2. Lots of unexpected overlapping in this order.
I think you might be slightly misreading the chart, if you're talking the order of weight per car (edit: my chart was wrong, your order is correct), but you bringing that up made me realize I got cumulative rounding errors for PSI, so I'll fix that.
 
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