TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[steveintoronto]

Just tap once in any two hour segment, That's your proof of payment. Don't tap onto anything else if you can avoid it. The subway presents a challenge however.

 

[M II A II R II K]

TTC customer service says if a bus readers aren’t working they have to let you on for free. If they don’t then if you’re paying as you go it makes no difference, but it would suck if you have a pass loaded onto it.

 

[nfitz]

Just tap once in any two hour segment, That's your proof of payment. Don't tap onto anything else if you can avoid it.

You can easily be charged 3 or 4 times in a short period of time on the same route, going back and forth in a 2-hour period. If you are doing that, and not tapping, then that is fare evasion. If an inspector is already on the car, and sees you not tap, and then inspects you, there are going to be questions.

I learned the hard way that this applies on th 504 diversion runs as well. Seems some (all?) of the 503 cars known as 504B these days are 504 in Presto and tapping from a 504 short turning at distillery and then onto a 504B (aka 503) heading up to Bingham results in a double charge.

There are no 503s currently running.

However some 504 CLRVs are using 503 (and even 502 and 501) signage because there's no exposures for 504 that have Woodbine or Bingham Loop.

Not very well communicated! I can see why there's confusion, especially when I transferred from a 504 Distillery to a 504 Bingham yesterday, that was signed as a 503!

Where on there does it mention "shuttles"?

That one doesn't, it's just generic about short-turns. There's been other specific mentions - but it could be better communicated.

 

[steveintoronto]

You can easily be charged 3 or 4 times in a short period of time on the same route, going back and forth in a 2-hour period. If you are doing that, and not tapping, then that is fare evasion. If an inspector is already on the car, and sees you not tap, and then inspects you, there are going to be questions.

That's not what I stated or indicated. Plus I question under what clause of the Bylaw can specifically be invoked even if someone does. They have paid a fare and it's still effective for two hours from tap-on. That is my point. As stated, at least once, I *have had my fare checked* a number of times, and all they check for is the time of your last tap-on, not where it is, what socks you're wearing or if your mother whistles Dixie. I've been waiting for them to raise it as an issue. None ever has. For good reason. That grey area will be no longer a point of conjecture once the two hour transfer becomes official.

 

[BurlOak]

Essentially, you tap any time you switch from one vehicle to another. That way fair inspectors can more easily tell who to check. If inspector check you and you haven't tapped on that specific vehicle, then you are at fault. If you try tapping more than 2 hours after your first tap, you get charged an extra fare.
Once you have reached a monthly maximum, you will no longer be charged any more. If you don't tap and your card has hit the month end maximum, you would not be fined {since you have actually already paid by being at the maximum}, but likely would be {rightfully} harassed by inspectors who see that you didn't tap.
It seems pretty simple.

EDIT: what should have been done based on logic - not based on the actual rules.

 

[steveintoronto]

It seems pretty simple.

Fine, then quote from the following as to what the offence is (and this particular issue aside, there are a number of clauses that are legal nonsense)

2. Requirement to Pay Fare - Conditions of Use
2.1 No person shall travel or attempt to travel on the transit system or enter a fare paid area, or attempt to enter a fare paid area without paying the appropriate fare:

a) Where the amount of the fare charged for passage on the transit system or entry to a fare paid area is disputed, the passenger shall pay the amount requested by a proper authority;

b) A passenger who refuses to pay the amount of fare requested by a proper authority shall be refused passage on the transit system or into the fare paid area.

2.2 No person shall, unless otherwise set out in the conditions of use:

a) in any way alter, change or recreate any fare media, other than an employee or agent of the TTC authorized to do so;

b) travel or attempt to travel on the transit system with fare media that has been altered, changed, recreated in any way by a person other than an employee or agent of the TTC authorized to do so;

c) in any way alter, change, recreate any identification card or photo identification card issued by or on behalf of the TTC, other than an employee or agent of the TTC authorized to do so;

d) travel or attempt to travel on the transit system with any identification card or photo identification card that has been altered, changed, recreated in any way by any person other than an employee or agent of the TTC authorized to do so.

2.3 Fare media shall be:

a) valid for the period as indicated on the fare media; and

b) valid in accordance with the conditions of use of the fare media and as set out in this by-law.

2.4 Any identification card or photo identification card issued by or on behalf of the TTC shall be:

a) valid for the period as indicated on the identification card or photo identification card; and

b) valid in accordance with the conditions of use of the identification card or photo identification card and as set out in this by-law.

2.5 Fare media, an identification card or a photo identification card issued by or on behalf of the TTC remains the property of the TTC and is subject to confiscation or cancellation, without refund, by a proper authority if the holder of the fare media, identification card or photo identification card:

a) causes damage to TTC property; or

b) fails to comply with the conditions of use of the fare media, identification card or photo identification.

2.6 When requested to do so by a proper authority, a person travelling on the transit system shall immediately surrender for inspection the fare media, an identification card or photo identification card under which the person is travelling.

2.7 Unless travelling on a Proof-of-Payment route, Section 2.6 does not apply to a person who has paid a fare using cash, ticket or token.

2.8 It is a term and condition of each fare media issued by the TTC or on behalf of the TTC and for every ride on the transit system that:

a) the TTC and its employees and agents are not liable to passengers for lost or stolen fare media;

b) the TTC and its employees and agents are not liable for delays or cancellations of any kind caused by any reason;

c) the TTC and its employees and agents shall have the right, whenever operating circumstances require it, to transfer a passenger from one vehicle to another vehicle; and

d) the TTC, its employees and agents are not responsible for loss of or damage to property of passengers carried onto the transit system.

2.9 Operators of a TTC vehicle are not permitted to sell fare media or make change. Subway collectors and other TTC employees selling fare media are not required to change bills of a higher denomination than $100.00 Canadian or $20.00 American. Any person refusing to tender a bill of $100.00 Canadian or less or of $20.00 American or less shall be deemed to be refusing to pay a fare and shall not be entitled entry into the transit system, a TTC vehicle, or any fare paid area.

2.10 No person paying a fare using cash, ticket or token, shall be entitled to more than one transfer.

2.11 No person paying a fare using a form of fare media not mentioned in Section 2.10 shall be entitled to a transfer.

2.12 No person shall use, or attempt to use a transfer unless the transfer has been issued to that person upon payment of a fare media in accordance with Section 2.10.

2.13 No person shall sell, exchange or give away a transfer unless otherwise authorized by the TTC.

2.14 No person shall sell or attempt to sell any form of fare media while on TTC property unless otherwise authorized by the TTC.

https://www.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/TTC_Bylaws/index.jsp

Now this is going to get them into a lot of trouble if someone tests it in court. They have no clause in the Bylaw that I can find that stops the entire Bylaw being struck instead of just the clause: (I've come across a number of municipalities who've somehow overlooked this, God knows how. Guelph was one, don't know if they've added it in)

[2.6 When requested to do so by a proper authority, a person travelling on the transit system shall immediately surrender for inspection the fare media, an identification card or photo identification card under which the person is travelling.]

Really? Under what Provincial statute? Showing 'Proof of Payment' on demand is intrinsic in the Tariff. Showing photo ID isn't unless one is travelling on a student fare, and even there, there's legal grey areas. Example: https://theeyeopener.com/2017/02/ttc-student-fare-is-inherently-flawed/

[2.7 Unless travelling on a Proof-of-Payment route, Section 2.6 does not apply to a person who has paid a fare using cash, ticket or token.] Which only further complicates the the TTC's claim. That clause would make a JP cringe.

Remember the TTC's "photos on Presto Card fiasco"? How did that lovely idea go? Presto buried it as fast as they could, for damn good reason. Some who tried to explain it away claimed it would be digitally encoded. lol...there isn't the memory space on them for that, not the present series anyway, plus it would still raise hackles legally.

But let's get back to the "simple" part. Where's the clause requiring tapping on to every POP vehicle if your initial tap on is within the two hours allotted?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

If you try tapping more than 2 hours after your first tap, you get charged an extra fare.
Once you have reached a monthly maximum, you will no longer be charged any more. If you don't tap and your card has hit the month end maximum, you would not be fined, but likely would be harassed by inspectors who see that you didn't tap.
It seems pretty simple.

Ther is no monthly maximum on the TTC only Go transit offers that. If you want a monthly pass on the TTC you can buy one each month or add the Discount plan onto your Presto card

 

[steveintoronto]

Ther is no monthly maximum on the TTC only Go transit offers that. If you want a monthly pass on the TTC you can buy one each month or add the Discount plan onto your Presto card

And there's a number of other "this way but not in all cases"...far from the "simple" as some posters believe.

Make no mistake, TTC staff (see here for instance: http://wemovetoronto.ca/proof-of-payment-will-soon-be-required-on-all-ttc-vehicles/) are demanding that a tap be made every transfer, but the Bylaw doesn't, unless there's a newer one kicking around that they haven't bothered to post. Which in itself is an immediate toss from court.

Which brings me to dogs and bikes on the TTC. Ask a bus driver, subway fare collector, train guard, inspector and go online. There's at least four different answers.

Best I can gather last time I delved was "3:30 PM to 7 PM". That's on their website. Oddly, not one of the listed persons above stated that.

 

[nfitz]

As stated, at least once, I *have had my fare checked* a number of times, and all they check for is the time of your last tap-on, not where it is, what socks you're wearing or if your mother whistles Dixie. I've been waiting for them to raise it as an issue. None ever has.

I didn't say you were likely to get caught - and probably would almost always get away with it.

The same way one can almost always get away with shoplifting something worth $3.

That doesn't mean that not tapping a second time on the same route, when making a return trip, or a different trip, isn't immoral and theft. Nor does it mean there's no risk.

Personally, after years of having a monthly pass - my biggest danger is to forget to tap at all.

Which does make me wonder what happens when one has a Metropass loaded on Presto. If one doesn't tap - what does it really matter?

There is no monthly maximum on the TTC only Go transit offers that.

There's no daily or weekly maximum currently either! The latest schedule has daily capping starting on October 15, 2018, and weekly capping not starting until March 2019!

 

[steveintoronto]

I didn't say you were likely to get caught - and probably would almost always get away with it.

The same way one can almost always get away with shoplifting something worth $3.

You're travelling within your two hour window to your destination. How's that even remotely theft?

 

[nfitz]

You're travelling within your two hour window to your destination. How's that even remotely theft?

It isn't. I'm referring to additional trips in the 2-hour period, that would require an extra fare. A-B is fine. But say your next trip 10 minutes later after you drop your child off at school is B to A. It requires an extra fare until ... until August when they finally come to their senses.

 

[steveintoronto]

It isn't. I'm referring to additional trips in the 2-hour period, that would require an extra fare. A-B is fine. But say your next trip 10 minutes later after you drop your child off at school is B to A. It requires an extra fare until ... until August when they finally come to their senses.

Even that is questionable. I posit that the TTC *has never had* the power to determine what you can and can't do while transferring. I'd love to test that one in court.

"Yes your Worship, they not only have shops where you can sit and eat and while away conversation, but they encourage it in the malls within stations, such as Eglinton et al, and have done so for over fifty years".

 

[nfitz]

Even that is questionable. I posit that the TTC *has never had* the power to determine what you can and can't do while transferring. I'd love to test that one in court.

TTC doesn't have the power to say you have to pay twice, if you make your return journey within 2 hours?

I think we are done here ...

 

[Neutrino]

Here's the solution to our last mile problem:

 

[steveintoronto]

TTC doesn't have the power to say you have to pay twice, if you make your return journey within 2 hours?

I think we are done here ...

You might be done, but at no point have I even insinuated making a return fare.

You're travelling within your two hour window to your destination.

You seem to insist on twisting others' points.