TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[TransitBart]

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This is... unusual even for St. Clair.

Courtesy of Ev Delen

View attachment 148649

Poor streetcar...ah baby...4008 we’ll miss ya...

 

[smallspy]

If I had to guess, the car probably change their mind and decided not to turn left, and instead tried to out-accelerate the Streetcar and use the left lane.

The auto went to turn left at the intersection on a red light, didn't realize that there was a streetcar behind, and got pushed into the traffic island/divider. The streetcar was travelling at a decent clip at the time, which is how the auto managed to get so wedged.

A friend of mine who was involved in the clean-up remarked that the police had a field day with cell-phone use by passing drivers - they had 4 people pulled over at one point, with something like 13 tickets issued in total.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[steveintoronto]

The auto went to turn left at the intersection on a red light, didn't realize that there was a streetcar behind, and got pushed into the traffic island/divider. The streetcar was travelling at a decent clip at the time, which is how the auto managed to get so wedged.

A friend of mine who was involved in the clean-up remarked that the police had a field day with cell-phone use by passing drivers - they had 4 people pulled over at one point, with something like 13 tickets issued in total.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Many thanks for the details on that. Every time I saw the pic featured in the news, I'd go searching for details, none showed.

the police had a field day with cell-phone use by passing drivers - they had 4 people pulled over at one point, with something like 13 tickets issued in total.

It's absolutely rampant. I'm not usually a 'Law and Order' kinda guy, but I'd certainly be supportive of paying for more traffic cops on the street (or a dedicated traffic enforcement agency) cracking down on some of the ridiculous driving practices we're witness to in Toronto especially right now.

That accident was only one of a multitude that have occurred in the last few days, two of which I've run across that haven't even been reported in the press. At least one (Harbord and Crawford, a multi car collision from driver reversing from his first accident, perhaps trying to do a hit and run) had the driver taken into custody. Witnesses told me he was obviously intoxicated.

 

[BurlOak]

The auto went to turn left at the intersection on a red light, didn't realize that there was a streetcar behind, and got pushed into the traffic island/divider. The streetcar was travelling at a decent clip at the time, which is how the auto managed to get so wedged.

A friend of mine who was involved in the clean-up remarked that the police had a field day with cell-phone use by passing drivers - they had 4 people pulled over at one point, with something like 13 tickets issued in total.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I imagine that streetcar signals do not use red, yellow and green so as to not confuse motorist.
If streetcar signals are indeed green, its easy to see the motorist mistaking it for a signal for left turns.

 

[TransitBart]

I imagine that streetcar signals do not use red, yellow and green so as to not confuse motorist.
If streetcar signals are indeed green, its easy to see the motorist mistaking it for a signal for left turns.

This is tongue in cheek, right?

 

[steveintoronto]

This is tongue in cheek, right?

I deferred from posting same, as if Burl is right, we're all in deep, deep shid. I'm almost tempted to visit the site just to see if there's any possibility of there being a case as Burl states. It's like the QQ tunnel, and as much as QQ is an incredibly poorly thought out layout, how anyone could possibly mistake the tunnel for the road boggles me. I do see they've carved a 'moat' across the tracks now....just in case.

 

[drum118]

Based on what we've seen from Leary for the past few months, let's hope he's not the one selected. So far it's seem like the same status-quo -prior to Byford-with him around (ie: lack of transparency/communication).

Fully agree.

Need another Andy or so, who will hold his staff feet to the fire and fight with the board for more money and bring some of the below the line above it.

Regardless who take control, it will take years before we can see any real improvement system wide, as it means building more bus and streetcars complexes, building more streetcar lines and expanding a few existing ones.

Need a big push to move to the bar signal system for both buses and streetcar lines. Ford may have something to say about that or any TTC plans not being a subway.

 

[BurlOak]

Which is easier to confuse? Why do cars need to understand transit signals? Are transit drivers not smart enough to memorize a new set of signals?

 

[steveintoronto]

Which is easier to confuse? Why do cars need to understand transit signals? Are transit drivers not smart enough to memorize a new set of signals?

That's up to the Highway Traffic Act, they only allow one symbol. The Pilot section does allow for (gist) "anything anywhere anyhow anytime" (actually for six years IIRC) not to mention that you miss the point.

I was just at the scene of the accident, took some pics:

I'll post this one first, as it tells a story. The driver must have started his turn, realized the streetcar was bearing on him, slammed on his brakes, then impacted with his brakes locked (even modern braking systems can do this) thus the skid most of the way through the intersection before even hitting the streetcar, which then deflected the vehicle and skid as clearly shown here:

My shot of the intersection lights for westbound caught a severe sun glare, but they are the same layout as the eastbound:

Here's the next signal phase:

Apologies for the poor quality, I'll access Google Street View later for the westbound high resolution.

Note the protective buttress that was hit, especially the light shining under it:

As an aside from the cause of the accident, I was at first alarmed at the displacement of the barrier, until realizing it was designed as 'controlled force break-away'. This will absorb a good part of the forward momentum of the impact, and then release so as to not destroy the impacting object, or itself. In other words, to slow, not stop an errant object endangering waiting passengers on the platform.

I have some more pics, but I think the point is made, and any finer ones I'd prefer be done by others with higher resolution pics. Again, I'll post the Street View pic of the lights in question later.

No matter how you cut this, the vehicle driver fugged up. Big time. Ostensibly there's a trip recorder on the streetcar that will determine definitely that it had r.o.w.

Look at it this way: If that vehicle driver had hit an oncoming cement truck, of which there are plenty at that intersection right now, streetcar clanging would be the least of his/her worries.

 

[steveintoronto]

Here is the Street View pic of the westbound lights St Clair at Spadina:

Is there some ambiguity? Perhaps, but if so, then it should cause a driver to fail a driving test. Gosh, what to believe. A sign that states: "Left Turn Signal" or one of a smaller size and format that states "Transit Signal"?

Yes, it really must be difficult for some. Now getting back to those drivers going down the tunnel on QQ...

Edit to Add: A closer shot of the signals:

 

[Neil]

I bring this up roughly annually. Why do the transit signals have to be anywhere else besides the dashboard of the transit vehicle? If other drivers can't see them, they won't mistakenly follow them.

 

[steveintoronto]

I bring this up roughly annually. Why do the transit signals have to be anywhere else besides the dashboard of the transit vehicle? If other drivers can't see them, they won't mistakenly follow them.

Because the dashboards of the streetcars and buses don't display them. Why do cars need them displayed? Riddle me this...

Ideally, when streetcars and LRVs are on PTO/PTC, and CBTC at that, and priority at lights results, Toronto can truly call itself a "World City". But until that time, just as pedestrians need crossing signals in lieu of alerts on their iMeMyself devices of when to cross or not, as well as eat, mate and vote, and move their bowels, we go by visual cues, not automatic ones.

*Even when* streetcars/buses/lrvs have a sophisticated central control system, it will still be necessary for all concerned to display the different phases to everyone. Unless, of course, they can't handle it, at which time their right to drive must be terminated.

Btw: I can't prove it with the pic sequence I have on hand, but there is no 'overlap' between the signal phases. Before any one turns green, they are all red, even for a moment.

 

[Neil]

Because the dashboards of the streetcars and buses don't display them. Why do cars need them displayed? Riddle me this...

???. I'm talking new functionality, A different way of doing things. Take the transit lights off the street poles. The only audience for that information is the transit driver. Have a "intelligent device" on the bus/streetcar that communicates with the traffic lights and tells the operator when they can go.

 

[steveintoronto]

???. I'm talking new functionality, A different way of doing things. Take the transit lights off the street poles. The only audience for that information the transit driver. Have a "intelligent device" on the bus/streetcar that communicates with the traffic lights and tells the operator when they can go.

You might as well be talking about going to the Moon.

Many of us in these strings have been on this subject intently even if for only the King Street Pilot. It's not budgeted for even there, let alone on the overall system although there is some subterfuge with the City Roads and Traffic on turning on priority or not at a number of the major intersections affected.

Why don't cars have them on their dashboards, then we could do away with intersection lights altogether! Then no-one would have to see one ever again.

What you project can be and is used on *controlled access rail lines* and even there, it's never completely foolproof, albeit statistically far better than human controlled.

But that's exactly the problem! Idiot drivers. Replace them with robots, and then perhaps we can have a serious conversation.

How have those "driverless cars" been performing of late?

 

[Neil]

Why don't all cars have them on their dashboards? Well yes they could but I'm talking about adding devices to hundreds of vehicles and not millions. I totally agree with you that current system is not working. We have 3 sets of lights for 3 user bases: transit, other vehicles, pedestrians. The problem is the first 2 sets of lights are the same. So we could use a different type of light but I think that's still presuming too much talent in the driving community. That's why I prefer removing the transit lights from the public realm.