TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[generalcanada]

Capital is not funded from fares and never will be.



Seniors and low income people would oppose getting cheaper passes than they currently have? Are you sure?

Yes, single rides for those groups would be higher, but if you're not in pass territory, (ie. significantly below 40 rides a month) then the impact isn't that substantial, given my proposal lowers the adult fare.

An occasional rider senior pays $2.25 per ride, so my proposal adds .75c, if they take 4 rides per week, or 16 per month, their increase is $12; but for frequent ride senior (40'ish or more rides) my proposal saves $8 per month, and adds 3-hour ride windows as well.

I don't think the challenge is as daunting as you make it seem.

You really think people are that smart?
The carbon tax exists and people literally make money from it (me included). But when have you ever heard of someone doing the math?
Remember the homeownership rate of seniors is 70%. They're usually the loudest when it comes to anything tax related

excluding the capital projects, the SOGR is $8 billion. That definitely is funded from fares.

 

[duffo]

Seniors and low income people would oppose getting cheaper passes than they currently have? Are you sure?

Yes, single rides for those groups would be higher, but if you're not in pass territory, (ie. significantly below 40 rides a month) then the impact isn't that substantial, given my proposal lowers the adult fare.

An occasional rider senior pays $2.25 per ride, so my proposal adds .75c, if they take 4 rides per week, or 16 per month, their increase is $12; but for frequent ride senior (40'ish or more rides) my proposal saves $8 per month, and adds 3-hour ride windows as well.

I don't think the challenge is as daunting as you make it seem.

There are way fewer seniors riding 40+ rides a month than you think. This would be a massive fare increase for the vast majority of seniors. You can argue whether or not that they deserve that.

I also massively disagree with the removal of the low income pass program, which in reality should be greatly expanded to justify some degree of clawbacks to youth and senior fare discounts. Adding ridership by lowering the cost barrier for low-income riders reduces fare evasion and brings more funding to the TTC via the Gas Tax. It's possible that these two factors would offset the revenue loss due to the fare reduction.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Pre-school children under 5 travel free (without a PRESTO card) when accompanied by a fare-paying customer.

After the child’s 6th birthday, the family should visit a participating Shoppers Drug Mart or a Customer Service Outlet location to set up their children's PRESTO card. Children 12 and under still travel free. Proof of age would be required. Expires on the child's 13th birthday and does not automatically switch to a Youth fare type.

Currently, children do not have to use a PRESTO card. They should above 5 years old and show a PRESTO card. The elementary schools should be able to set up a child's PRESTO card as part of their school registration.

Children should be able to put their PRESTO card on their smartphones and use them. Everyone over 5 years old should have to use their PRESTO card (or token, or ticket, or credit card, or debit card, or coins).

Instead of the current fare box, they should use a coin fare collector like other transit agencies use.

Unfortunately, with the TTC being underfunded for operations, the TTC would be unable to even pilot such fareboxes.

 

[nfitz]

After the child’s 6th birthday, the family should visit a participating Shoppers Drug Mart or a Customer Service Outlet location to set up their children's PRESTO card. Children 12 and under still travel free. Proof of age would be required. Expires on the child's 13th birthday and does not automatically switch to a Youth fare type.

Why bother? They've found that the vast majority of those with child's cards (which are still necessary on some system - such as York, where children 6-up pay a fare) are used by adults.

Why put a LOT more into circulation?

 

[turbanplanner]

This is an incredibly passive aggressive announcement from a media relations team!

 

[Northern Light]

I also massively disagree with the removal of the low income pass program

So you disagree with lowering the price of the low-income pass then?

What I proposed is a $120 per month pass for every paying rider.

The current low income pass is $128 per month.

So you're advocating for low income earners paying more than under my proposal.

This always gets me, not to pick on you Duffo, but people respond instinctively, instead of carefully reading what's written, or actually doing the math.

My version of this lowers costs for low-income pass users for seniors pass users for student pass users and for adult pass users.

The only large price hike is for children 4-12 who are now free and would instead have to pay; with a smaller hike for single rides for seniors and students, but offset, in part, by a larger travel window.

Its possible to set the single-fare price and pass price lower, but my scheme was meant so you could fund it mostly by offsets, higher ridership and lower fare evasion, though I expect there would be some net cost.

If you want to set the single ride fare at $2.50, and the pass at $100 you could do that too; but that would like add 250M to the cost.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I would keep the cash fare at the full adult price. Need a "discount" fare (IE. student, senior, child), apply for it using PRESTO. Even if the "child" is supposed to be free, the PRESTO card becomes an "ID" for the "discount".

 

[picard102]

This is an incredibly passive aggressive announcement from a media relations team!

View attachment 595059

Good for them.

 

[lead82]

I would get rid of the collectors and abolish the cash fare and the seniors discount. Seniors should pay the same rate as everyone else. The only concession we should offer are for students and for low income. I would also support a fare increase to make the adult fare $3.50 if it meant we can get the subway service restored to 2min frequency and the slow zones fixed ASAP. Heck I’d even suggest to take it up to $4 by 2028. The TTC is in desperate need to be spruced up and repaired so it’s functional and somewhat reliable. Use the fare collectors to move them around and catch the fare cheaters. There is no need for the subway system to accept cash anymore.

 

[Amare]

I would get rid of the collectors and abolish the cash fare and the seniors discount. Seniors should pay the same rate as everyone else. The only concession we should offer are for students and for low income. I would also support a fare increase to make the adult fare $3.50 if it meant we can get the subway service restored to 2min frequency and the slow zones fixed ASAP. Heck I’d even suggest to take it up to $4 by 2028. The TTC is in desperate need to be spruced up and repaired so it’s functional and somewhat reliable. Use the fare collectors to move them around and catch the fare cheaters. There is no need for the subway system to accept cash anymore.

Well your wish on the increased fares for everyone will be coming true very shortly regardless. That will be to pay for the nice ~$176 million (~$60 million/yr) the city will be paying over the next 3 years for those hefty salary increases the city negotiated with the TTC. Expect a fare increase next year, and the year after as well.

As for the overall fare structure, I dont see that changing anytime in the near future.

 

[bearcat]

I would get rid of the collectors and abolish the cash fare and the seniors discount. Seniors should pay the same rate as everyone else. The only concession we should offer are for students and for low income. I would also support a fare increase to make the adult fare $3.50 if it meant we can get the subway service restored to 2min frequency and the slow zones fixed ASAP. Heck I’d even suggest to take it up to $4 by 2028. The TTC is in desperate need to be spruced up and repaired so it’s functional and somewhat reliable. Use the fare collectors to move them around and catch the fare cheaters. There is no need for the subway system to accept cash anymore.

I don't take the TTC too often, and when I do I use Presto with auto reload set up. I am curious do all subway stations have a Presto reload machine that can sell single use Presto tickets and accept cash? Is there still a "cash fare" for the subway, as in just putting cash in a farebox to enter?

 

[drum118]

I would get rid of the collectors and abolish the cash fare and the seniors discount. Seniors should pay the same rate as everyone else. The only concession we should offer are for students and for low income. I would also support a fare increase to make the adult fare $3.50 if it meant we can get the subway service restored to 2min frequency and the slow zones fixed ASAP. Heck I’d even suggest to take it up to $4 by 2028. The TTC is in desperate need to be spruced up and repaired so it’s functional and somewhat reliable. Use the fare collectors to move them around and catch the fare cheaters. There is no need for the subway system to accept cash anymore.

I have ridden a number of systems where there been no fare collector or customer service at stations where there been issues trying to get out of the tap off exit or you need info as where you need to make a transfer to another line or get to a station. It wasn't fun doing so. I saw this on a system this summer where riders couldn't get out of a station as the tap off system was down. Gates were force open so riders could get out of the station. Seen them force open to get in as well for various reasons, but mostly fare evasion.

The only place where cash is used in the system is on the buses as you have to use cash to get your ticket at subway fare machines as well on the streetcars. Yes there are subway stations where cash is drop in the fare box, but very low compared to riders getting their ticket at the fare machines.

TTC is in poor shape as there been next to no funding for it for decades.

You realize that every time a Presto card is used for fare, it cost TTC more than it did when they where using cash tickets and tokens along with passes??? Even when TTC still recover the cash nightly, it keeps more funds than they would if it was Presto going to ML pockets.

Seniors should be ridding free since they help to build the system in the first place and give you a nice life style. I love to see you using transit paying full fare as a senior who lives on a $30,000 or less incomes and rents, let alone own a home. while enjoying your current life style. There are places in the US as well in Europe where seniors ride free or pay $1 or less to ride the system, Even in Europe, seniors can ride next to nothing on the railway in many places.

I have yet to see a system where fare evasion is not a fact of life.

Why should students get a free ride when A lot of us had to paid to ride the system once we turn 6 and more so when we became adult.

It is long over due to stop the nickeling and diming TTC when it comes to budget time.

Be happy you have a system with good service compared to what you find in the US, let alone around the world in many places.

 

[nfitz]

What's the added cost of always having a collector at the fare gates? Will it exceed $20 million per year? I thought there were stations where there's only one person on duty at a time.

 

[lead82]

I have ridden a number of systems where there been no fare collector or customer service at stations where there been issues trying to get out of the tap off exit or you need info as where you need to make a transfer to another line or get to a station. It wasn't fun doing so. I saw this on a system this summer where riders couldn't get out of a station as the tap off system was down. Gates were force open so riders could get out of the station. Seen them force open to get in as well for various reasons, but mostly fare evasion.

The only place where cash is used in the system is on the buses as you have to use cash to get your ticket at subway fare machines as well on the streetcars. Yes there are subway stations where cash is drop in the fare box, but very low compared to riders getting their ticket at the fare machines.

TTC is in poor shape as there been next to no funding for it for decades.

You realize that every time a Presto card is used for fare, it cost TTC more than it did when they where using cash tickets and tokens along with passes??? Even when TTC still recover the cash nightly, it keeps more funds than they would if it was Presto going to ML pockets.

Seniors should be ridding free since they help to build the system in the first place and give you a nice life style. I love to see you using transit paying full fare as a senior who lives on a $30,000 or less incomes and rents, let alone own a home. while enjoying your current life style. There are places in the US as well in Europe where seniors ride free or pay $1 or less to ride the system, Even in Europe, seniors can ride next to nothing on the railway in many places.

I have yet to see a system where fare evasion is not a fact of life.

Why should students get a free ride when A lot of us had to paid to ride the system once we turn 6 and more so when we became adult.

It is long over due to stop the nickeling and diming TTC when it comes to budget time.

Be happy you have a system with good service compared to what you find in the US, let alone around the world in many places.

I know the TTC has been neglected for decades. I also agree that Presto is a rip off but it’s here and it’s convenient and it’s mostly working now. I don’t see the need for cash management now by the TTC as that has a high labour cost. That’s why I think the fare needs to go up to cover the loss
In revenue to ML/Presto.

As for seniors, the ones on GIS are low income I have no issue having a pass reduced fare but the majority of seniors are the wealthiest folks in society and can certainly afford to pay full adult fare. Students for the most part don’t have jobs that pay decently until they are 18 or more so that’s why I suggest they keep their concession.

The bottom line for me is that the TTC needs massive investment and one way to do that is to not keep fares low. Fares will never be free here as there isn’t the political will to do it.

 

[evandyk]

If you are going to have a "low income" fare, I don't really see the point of having separate student and senior categories. If students and seniors aren't low income, why shouldn't they pay the regular fare? Most students are low income, but as pointed out, many seniors are very high income.