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News Roundup for January 10, 2025
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TTC: New Fare Gate Installation

innsertnamehere said:
I see people walk into bus bays all the time. Most of the time they are confused tourists or new to the city.. but it does happen fairly often.
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That's true that people are often confused. TTC's fare paid zone don't exist in most parts of the world. They we have stations like Jane and Runnymede where the bus terminal is not fare paid zone. Then we have people fare evading and would act as a tourist.

The old gates prevents fare evasion. These new gates are absolutely jump-able or crawl-able. Seriously what the heck is the TTC thinking. Unattended gates will be jumped. They should have went with full height gates and fence off everything. NYC does it for a good reason.

DSC said:
True and don't forget that in future you will have to tap OUT of subways so it means gate jumping twice.
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Not if they can just take a bus/streetcar out the system. Unless they plan on exiting downtown, they can still get out. TTC could forces everyone to tap on buses/streetcars with the driver watching everyone pay their fares to counter fare evaders but that's inefficient. Also, there are many unattended secondary exits everywhere with more to come as TTC brings every station up to modern fire safety standards. People are more likely to evade in the wee hours, not during rush hour when everyone is watching.

Also, someone could just use a child card to open the gate for free. TTC fails big time. Seriously.
 
Steve X said:
...
The old gates prevents fare evasion. These new gates are absolutely jump-able or crawl-able. Seriously what the heck is the TTC thinking. Unattended gates will be jumped. They should have went with full height gates and fence off everything. NYC does it for a good reason...
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How high should those gates be?

suarez_25fare_MET_002.jpg
 
Steve X said:
Also, someone could just use a child card to open the gate for free. TTC fails big time. Seriously.
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Do the child fares, or the student/senior, make a different sound or anything when tapped? I feel like I've heard different beeps for some people.

I think it would be good if the Presto reader actually said "Child" when tapped. That could be enough to make it embarrassing for some people to use when they're obviously not children. Maybe "student" and "senior" too to a lesser extent.
 
DSC said:
How exactly would you deal with this? (I suppose that could easily be solved by having only one fare - no concessions! :->)
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Random fare inspections by our fare inspectors. That's pretty much the mechanism for catching all fare fraud. It should be a bit cheaper compared to today's mechanism of manually inspecting all fares.
 
nfitz said:
Yes, it's pretty hard to miss.
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Except a post-secondary concession with people paying a full adult fare makes the same sound and not the adult sound. Under a security camera, it's pretty hard to catch in an unattended entrance.

rbt said:
Random fare inspections by our fare inspectors. That's pretty much the mechanism for catching all fare fraud. It should be a bit cheaper compared to today's mechanism of manually inspecting all fares.
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If child fare wasn't free, they would be paying a portion of their fare if an adult used it. The system is just setup for abuse with the TTC trying to counter it with photo ID child cards and probably a yearly procedure to renew the child concession.
 
Steve X said:
Except a post-secondary concession with people paying a full adult fare makes the same sound and not the adult sound. Under a security camera, it's pretty hard to catch in an unattended entrance.


If child fare wasn't free, they would be paying a portion of their fare if an adult used it. The system is just setup for abuse with the TTC trying to counter it with photo ID child cards and probably a yearly procedure to renew the child concession.
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Currently, they will ask for ID for children on the borderline at age 12. Likely, most would have an OHIP card with their photo on it by then. Else, a school ID.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Likely, most would have an OHIP card with their photo on it by then.
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It's illegal, in Ontario, for anyone except a registered and authorized healthcare provider/OHIP biller (e.g. walk-in clinic, family doctor, hospital) to request to see someone's health card for any reason. It can be voluntarily offered as ID, but never requested, even by government authorities such as police/transit enforcement, and people can never be required to have it on themselves for identification unless visiting a doctor. This is to combat health insurance fraud.
 
Zach6668 said:
Am I just really naive for thinking that really not that many people will just jump the gates because they're shorter now?
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Where in the world have you been where fare gates don't deter 99.9% of evaders? This is off-the-shelf technology which can be evaded, but likely won't. I could vault a gate, but it would take some work with a lunch, briefcase or bike. The average woman in heels or a skirt, or person with a long coat or over 16 years of age is completely unlikely to do so.

Why in hell not celebrate the demise of early 20th century technology - paying with aluminium discs - and the arrival of technology that I first encountered on the Paris Metro in 1986?

Holy shit, we've arrived in the late 20th century, Batman!
 
DSC said:
True and don't forget that in future you will have to tap OUT of subways so it means gate jumping twice.
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This is an importantly point. you have to not get caught twice if you're leaving from a station.

So you're 16, young, dumb and male and headed to Dundas Square and you're gonna vault out at Dundas Statin because you didn't tap on at say Greenwood. Good luck in that crowd.
 
I have seen people successfully bolt the turnstile at Queens' Park in the afternoon rush hour. (by sliding under, not by leaping over..... the Jays would have been impressed with the slide.) Collectors too busy in their booth to notice, riders not going to mess with the offender, no security officer present.

Fare evasion is going to happen in some small amount no matter what technology is employed. Gated entry will deter most of it, the rest is up to the fare inspectors to deal with.

The solution is not to hermetically seal the subway to prevent it, but to deter it.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I have seen people successfully bolt the turnstile at Queens' Park in the afternoon rush hour. (by sliding under, not by leaping over..... the Jays would have been impressed with the slide.) Collectors too busy in their booth to notice, riders not going to mess with the offender, no security officer present.

Fare evasion is going to happen in some small amount no matter what technology is employed. Gated entry will deter most of it, the rest is up to the fare inspectors to deal with.

The solution is not to hermetically seal the subway to prevent it, but to deter it.

- Paul
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Since 100% success in catching evaders are unlikely, the converse solution is to have penalties that are potentially exponential to the crime committed - including losing the rights to accessing public transit, refusal of other public services, mandatory deduction of fines through income tax/reduction of benefits in-lieu.

AoD
 
Anybody know if a provision was made in the installation plans for full removal of the collector booths and replacing them with more gates?
 
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