TTC: New Articulated Buses (In Delivery, Novabus)

[Electrify]

Almost looks like an LRT train in that pic.

 

[Johnny Au]

I went on one of the buses today (it was on route 29 Dufferin). It is fast and not crowded. There is one seat next to the driver and the front left wheel.

 

[RapidTransit]

I find the rear doors take a long time to close on those buses. TTC awarded another contract to the same company for more buses.

Is TTC still getting rid of the hybrids early? I was on Steve site not too long ago where one of the reports mention TTC wanted to get rid of the hybrid by 2015/16.

 

[edmundoconnor]

Artics are now running on 53E Steeles East route, although it does not seem to be a 'big bang', but rather interspersing them with the older models. I will not be sorry to see the back of the Orion Vs. Yes, they come with lifts, but when it comes to strollers, it comes down to the whim of the driver when to deploy it, especially at a busy stop. Roll on, low floor transit vehicles everywhere.

 

[drum118]

The Hybrid buses are a total failure and have not live up to expectation. CNG are now replacing them in the states.

Having to replace the batteries every 3-4 years in place of 5 year as promise at a cost of $60,000 plus per bus, it adds a huge cost to maintaining the buses as well not getting the fuel saving as well. The batteries add extra weight to the bus, as well contributing to the lost saving on fuel.

When the Hybrid bus breaks down, there is an extra cost that occurs over a diesel bus how the bus must be tow back to the garage.

TTC is the only system I know of that has the back door issue. Both Mississauga and Ottawa buses don't have these issues at all that I have been on. They open and close like all other non Orion Buses.

As for lift for stroller, the stroller people need to deal with the not using the ramp and being lazy with their SUV stroller. The ramp are to be use for which it was design for only.

All the back charges and late delivery to TTC and MTA over the Hybrid bus help to close Orion doors for good.

 

[RapidTransit]

The Hybrid buses are a total failure and have not live up to expectation. CNG are now replacing them in the states.

Having to replace the batteries every 3-4 years in place of 5 year as promise at a cost of $60,000 plus per bus, it adds a huge cost to maintaining the buses as well not getting the fuel saving as well. The batteries add extra weight to the bus, as well contributing to the lost saving on fuel.

When the Hybrid bus breaks down, there is an extra cost that occurs over a diesel bus how the bus must be tow back to the garage.

TTC is the only system I know of that has the back door issue. Both Mississauga and Ottawa buses don't have these issues at all that I have been on. They open and close like all other non Orion Buses.

As for lift for stroller, the stroller people need to deal with the not using the ramp and being lazy with their SUV stroller. The ramp are to be use for which it was design for only.

All the back charges and late delivery to TTC and MTA over the Hybrid bus help to close Orion doors for good.

TTC should take full responsibility of the Hybrid situation. Why didn't they test one and see how it worked. From What I've heard, the demo back in 2001 was a total failure, yet TTC still went ahead and ordered a shit load. WTF, how do you have educated people make a multi-million dollar screw-up like that. I wonder if its feasible to convert them to regular diesel buses, or replace them outright? There's no way they can keep going at this current rate.
When I ride these hybrid buses I find they jerk violently randomly, out of no where. TTC needs to take them off the road immediately before a lawsuit is filed!
Drum, you mentioned that Orion left the business, if that's the case how is TTC claiming warranty? Is this linked to the Warranty fiasco with Stintz?

 

[ShonTron]

The Feds were paying part of the purchase price for hybrid buses - this is one reason the TTC bought so many of them.

The CNGs -which replaced the only tried and true alternate fuel bus, trolley buses - were just as bad. The TTC converted the best of the bunch to diesel (the Orion V lift-equipped) and scrapped the rest well before the average retirement age.

 

[drum118]

TTC should take full responsibility of the Hybrid situation. Why didn't they test one and see how it worked. From What I've heard, the demo back in 2001 was a total failure, yet TTC still went ahead and ordered a shit load. WTF, how do you have educated people make a multi-million dollar screw-up like that. I wonder if its feasible to convert them to regular diesel buses, or replace them outright? There's no way they can keep going at this current rate.
When I ride these hybrid buses I find they jerk violently randomly, out of no where. TTC needs to take them off the road immediately before a lawsuit is filed!
Drum, you mentioned that Orion left the business, if that's the case how is TTC claiming warranty? Is this linked to the Warranty fiasco with Stintz?

The whole thing was a mess as the feds were pickup the extra cost between diesel & Hybrid with council wanting environment friendlily vehicles. Some of the commissioners were pushing environment thing and force TTC to buy the Hybrid buses.

As time went on, the problems with the buses were being sweep under the carpet until both TTC and Orion finally have to knowledge the issues.

Ed Drass who wrote about transit in Metro News posted links to my videos and photos that disputed TTC Claim as well Orion that TTC Buses were not been sent back to Orion due to various issues as claim. The videos and photos shot long range of TTC buses on Orion property as well storage areas around the plant clearly show TTC buses with run numbers and route names.

TTC GM Gerry Webster finally had to make a statement public at a TTC meeting that the Hybrid were failing a lot sooner than expect, batteries weight a lot more on the roof than they were supposed to as well failing around 2.5-3 years compare to the 5 year they were to supposed to last. Also, fuel saving wasn't as great as expected. He stated agreement was reach were TTC has and would received free buses in place of damages and late delivery to the point I last heard in 2010 was 27 buses. TTC is the only one who can confirm the number of free buses. It was also stated that Orion would replace all fail batteries, batteries on the existing fleet as well ones in production with another model and a new 5 year warrant starting from the day they were replace at no cost to TTC.

I would say that Orion lost somewhere between $15-$25m doing these changes. If MTA who was the largest buyer of Orion VII Hybrid bus did the same thing as TTC, Orion could have lost at least $75m or more on the Hybrid buses.

In 2010, the writing was on the wall that Orion was on borrow time with the Orion VII buses due to all the issues it had from day one. It was a matter of time until they close their doors unless a new product was design to replace the Orion VII as no one wanted to buy from them based on track record. OC was the last buyer of a larger order and I understand they have regret doing so.

I was very surprise when Mississauga purchased 15 Orion VII Hybrid bus considering the legal issues they had to go through surrounding the first 14 buses to come off the production line 6 months late and close to 18 months to get them on the road after delivery. Rear doors were a major issues, but the window leaking in the rain as well other issues were the most costly ones. MT personal had to file all the edges of the window area to get the windows to fit and be seal correctly. In the various meetings I had with the commissioner for Transportation and Hazel on Transit issues, Hazel would asked what was the update on the legal against Orion and it wasn't pretty. When MT lost 2 of the 14 due engine fires, I said they were write off based on my work background and was told by a few transit geeks I didn't know what I was talking about. They never got rebuild and in time they found their way to the scrap yard before their life cycle was up.

I don't know how warranties are being handle these days. Since Daimler who bought Orion up still maintain a sales office and the plant in Mississauga, maybe doing some work there on the warrant side, but most likely contracting it out.

The funny part that has stood out to me was when I was taken to Stratford by the president of City View to ride an EZ bus to YRT HQ was how well that the EZ handle the high speed along the 401 sitting in various location and then getting on MT Orion VII bus. It was night and day with Orion VII being a tank.

As the life cycle comes up for the Hybrid, they will be replace by diesel. Once the Eglinton Crosstown line comes on line, TTC will not need a lot of new buses down the road with the bus fleet coming smaller. Will see more artic's down the road as well.

No link that I know of for Stintz.

 

[rbt]

The Feds were paying part of the purchase price for hybrid buses - this is one reason the TTC bought so many of them.

More specifically, the Feds only offered money for hybrid buses. Normal buses were not qualified for federal reimbursement.

 

[Electrify]

The whole thing was a mess as the feds were pickup the extra cost between diesel & Hybrid with council wanting environment friendlily vehicles. Some of the commissioners were pushing environment thing and force TTC to buy the Hybrid buses.

As time went on, the problems with the buses were being sweep under the carpet until both TTC and Orion finally have to knowledge the issues.

Ed Drass who wrote about transit in Metro News posted links to my videos and photos that disputed TTC Claim as well Orion that TTC Buses were not been sent back to Orion due to various issues as claim. The videos and photos shot long range of TTC buses on Orion property as well storage areas around the plant clearly show TTC buses with run numbers and route names.

TTC GM Gerry Webster finally had to make a statement public at a TTC meeting that the Hybrid were failing a lot sooner than expect, batteries weight a lot more on the roof than they were supposed to as well failing around 2.5-3 years compare to the 5 year they were to supposed to last. Also, fuel saving wasn't as great as expected. He stated agreement was reach were TTC has and would received free buses in place of damages and late delivery to the point I last heard in 2010 was 27 buses. TTC is the only one who can confirm the number of free buses. It was also stated that Orion would replace all fail batteries, batteries on the existing fleet as well ones in production with another model and a new 5 year warrant starting from the day they were replace at no cost to TTC.

I would say that Orion lost somewhere between $15-$25m doing these changes. If MTA who was the largest buyer of Orion VII Hybrid bus did the same thing as TTC, Orion could have lost at least $75m or more on the Hybrid buses.

In 2010, the writing was on the wall that Orion was on borrow time with the Orion VII buses due to all the issues it had from day one. It was a matter of time until they close their doors unless a new product was design to replace the Orion VII as no one wanted to buy from them based on track record. OC was the last buyer of a larger order and I understand they have regret doing so.

I was very surprise when Mississauga purchased 15 Orion VII Hybrid bus considering the legal issues they had to go through surrounding the first 14 buses to come off the production line 6 months late and close to 18 months to get them on the road after delivery. Rear doors were a major issues, but the window leaking in the rain as well other issues were the most costly ones. MT personal had to file all the edges of the window area to get the windows to fit and be seal correctly. In the various meetings I had with the commissioner for Transportation and Hazel on Transit issues, Hazel would asked what was the update on the legal against Orion and it wasn't pretty. When MT lost 2 of the 14 due engine fires, I said they were write off based on my work background and was told by a few transit geeks I didn't know what I was talking about. They never got rebuild and in time they found their way to the scrap yard before their life cycle was up.

I don't know how warranties are being handle these days. Since Daimler who bought Orion up still maintain a sales office and the plant in Mississauga, maybe doing some work there on the warrant side, but most likely contracting it out.

The funny part that has stood out to me was when I was taken to Stratford by the president of City View to ride an EZ bus to YRT HQ was how well that the EZ handle the high speed along the 401 sitting in various location and then getting on MT Orion VII bus. It was night and day with Orion VII being a tank.

As the life cycle comes up for the Hybrid, they will be replace by diesel. Once the Eglinton Crosstown line comes on line, TTC will not need a lot of new buses down the road with the bus fleet coming smaller. Will see more artic's down the road as well.

No link that I know of for Stintz.

It is a bit of a shame that Orion went out of business before the TTC could tell them to EABOD. It was like an abused spouse whose husband continued to beat her until he passed away, taking her self esteem with her. Never giving the wife the chance to leave him and giving her the opportunity to regain her confidence (BTW I've had this metaphor in my head for awhile, no relation to Ford intended).

How Orion went under was arguably the least professional way I have ever witnessed. For a YEAR prior to their demise, their front page was dedicated to a "new website coming (up to three months into the future)." If you clicked the preview button, it simply said that they were not going to let their competitors see what they had in store, and you would just have to wait. When the three months were up, the tentative date simply jumped another three months! Eventually they stopped bothering to update this tease, and soon after announced they were shutting down. This not only reflected poorly on Orion, but on all of Daimler products as well!

Prior to the reacquisition of articulated buses, I had read on this forum and elsewhere an absurd amount of propaganda as to why the TTC did not have any. From getting stuck in the snow (which happens to regular buses as well), to poor lifespans (Pretty sure the first Viva buses are still rolling, and they are approaching their 10 year anniversary), to countless other excuses, in hindsight it is becoming clear that these apologists could not come to terms that the reason why the city did not have articulated buses was because TTC incompetence was in bed with an even more incompetent company! As someone said, if Orion had bothered to produce articulated buses, the TTC would have a small army of them by now.

The only excuse I've heard which ended up having merit was that it could lead to service cuts, which has happened unfortunately. However service can always be improved, and due to the limits of mixed traffic running an articulated bus every 4 minutes creates less bunching and is far more efficient than running a 40' bus every 2 minutes.

 

[doady]

Prior to the reacquisition of articulated buses, I had read on this forum and elsewhere an absurd amount of propaganda as to why the TTC did not have any. From getting stuck in the snow (which happens to regular buses as well), to poor lifespans (Pretty sure the first Viva buses are still rolling, and they are approaching their 10 year anniversary), to countless other excuses, in hindsight it is becoming clear that these apologists could not come to terms that the reason why the city did not have articulated buses was because TTC incompetence was in bed with an even more incompetent company! As someone said, if Orion had bothered to produce articulated buses, the TTC would have a small army of them by now.

Getting stuck in snow happens to regular buses, but it happens a lot more to artics. There's a reason Mississauga doesn't operate artics when it's snowing, for example.

The only excuse I've heard which ended up having merit was that it could lead to service cuts, which has happened unfortunately. However service can always be improved, and due to the limits of mixed traffic running an articulated bus every 4 minutes creates less bunching and is far more efficient than running a 40' bus every 2 minutes.

60 foot bus does not have 2 times the capacity of 40 foot. I'm not sure where you get that idea. How does 60 divided by 40 result in 2. Seriously, it is simple math.

As for bunching, artics will have less but only because they are spaced further apart. In reality, artics are slower and more unreliable because they need more time to let on passengers, and since they are carrying more people they are also less likely to skip stops, so they also have to stop more frequently to let passanger off. Replacing 40 foot with artics does not in any way solve the problem of buses falling behind schedule, it merely makes the problem less visible and in reality it probably makes the problem worse.

I think artics are best suited for express routes. Limited stops, combined with all-door boarding, will solve a lot of the disadvantages of artics. In 905, I think artics are very effective for 110 University, VIVA Blue, routes like that. I think TTC should use them for a similar purpose. Think of why 501 Queen has POP system, and why the new streetcars will use POP system. Then maybe you will see the problem with using these artics for regular bus routes.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

^^Miway operates their artics in the snow. I don't recall riding a 40 footer on the 26 during the winter.

 

[ShonTron]

I think artics are best suited for express routes. Limited stops, combined with all-door boarding, will solve a lot of the disadvantages of artics. In 905, I think artics are very effective for 110 University, VIVA Blue, routes like that. I think TTC should use them for a similar purpose. Think of why 501 Queen has POP system, and why the new streetcars will use POP system. Then maybe you will see the problem with using these artics for regular bus routes.

Indeed. The other 501 Queen uses artics as well, they especially make sense on the York U express branch.

The artics should not have been put on Bathurst Street - they should have been deployed on the 196 York U Rocket instead.

 

[ehlow]

I rode one today on Dufferin, it was really nice, new, clean, spacious, bright.

I could imagine it being really effective with all-door boarding and express stop spacing.

 

[drum118]

Had my first ride on these buses yesterday on 9006 on Dufferin. Saw a lot of them.

They ride differently than VIVA ones and on the rough side. Floor has a slight ramp to the hinge section. Seating doesn't come close to any artic's in the GTA.

My trip was too short and need a long one to do a full comparison how it stacks up to other Nova artic's as well NFI.

9004 has paint coming off at the bottom by the driver area or it has scrape against something.