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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

It has been said that the Queen line carry over 100,000 with mu PCC every 2:45 back in the 70's and 80's. It included the downtowners.

TTC does not do a yearly update on routes. If they did, they not could stay on top of all the changes they would have to do. TTC would be more hard press for equipment to meet ridership standards.

I have seen the counter on the 504, 501, 506, BD this year and it was the same person

I saw a counter sitting in a lawn chair on the (Pape)? platform in the east end a few weeks ago where the westbound driver stop.

In some way, King ridership is up as riders have given up on the 501 service. At the same time, it has seen more condo added along the route these past 5 years.
 
The earliest riding data I have for the system is 1976. At that time, Queen carried about 66,500 (Humber-Neville), Downtowner carried 19,800, Long Branch carried 14,900 (some of whom, but not all, would transfer to Queen and need to be deducted to be comparable to current operations). That still gives us a figure somewhere around 90,000.

The Carlton car carried 61,300 about 50% more than it did in 2002 the last time a new count was reported.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Streetcar lines that cross Yonge are made as long routes, too, so of course their ridership is going to be high. Many routes, particularly suburban bus routes, run on for long distances but ridership peters out to almost nothing for the last few km. It's peak ridership volumes, not riders per km, that determines what is needed to handle ridership (politics, planning, etc., also get involved). I'm not sure there are any times of the day when Eglinton isn't cripplingly slow east and west of the Allen, where most of the riders are riding it.
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No streetcar route is as long as the two Finch lines put together. Ridership peters out to the edges of streetcar lines too. My point about Eglinton is that it's very suburban and quite fast to drive on between Weston Rd and the 427...Carlton doesn't have any sections like that, so I doubt overall congestion is any higher on Eglinton.

Buses could replace a streetcar line like the Carlton car...doesn't mean they should, but they certainly could.
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Well sure, but it would severely limit the potential ridership of the line.
 
Chris84 said:
From the Toronto Sun
Friday August 22, 2008
TTC streetcar deal to Alstom?

Do you believe it?
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Yes.

TTC could had a prototype here last fall for testing from Alstom that would met most of TTC requirement before TTC even went out for a tender back in 2004. It would have been duel end.

It has been my understanding from day one that the 25% rule apply for the whole car. Given the fact that there are very few companies in Canada that can supply parts for the LRT's in the first place, 25% is a hard number unattainable at this time. Many parts will be made of parts bought off shore in the first place.

Only 33% of Orion Buses made in Mississauga meet Canadian content at this time. Same applies to NFI. Nova is over 50%.

40% of the new Subway train is Canadian and most of that is labour done in Thunderbay. The rest comes from the US and off shore.

It has been stated that Thunderbay can only produce 26 LRT's a year, how many years will it take Thunderbay to built 204 cars for the current fleet?

Now add on the cars for Transit City that is to be built by 2018 and how many more years will it take to do the full order?

Quite clearly, Thunderbay cannot handle any part of TTC needs. I do know other suppliers can meet TTC requirement for delivery with no problem other than the lame bidder.
 
Wait, I don't understand how the article concludes that the contract will be awarded to Alstom. The only line on the subject is:

In what would be a major upset, it seems likely the deal will go to a French company, Alstom, and not to the Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay.
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Thats it, no quotes, no references and no facts to back up the statement. I think the Sun would have a better reputation if it avoided articles like this. It almost vies with the Enquirer nowadays.

That said, a part of me does wish that Alstom got the bid. The Citadis does seem like a much more elegant streetcar. Guess I have to wait for more details.
 
Alstom has the best looking cars IMO and as much as I'd like them to get the job, Bombardier is closer to home and we should give the contract to them if it helps support Canadian economy (if it will be more than the 25% Canadian content)... I'm willing to pay a little bit higher fair to keep the investment here.
 
CGM said:
I'm willing to pay a little bit higher fair to keep the investment here.
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I too am prepared to pay a bit more for something made in Canada BUT the TTC should select the BEST product at the best price and not take its country of origin into account. If the Provincial and Federal governments, who are also contributing to the cost, then want to contribute MORE money so that a more expensive Canadian / Ontarian supplier can compete and so that jobs remain in Canada that is fine with me (in fact, a good idea) but I do not think that the TTC or Toronto should pay extra money to support jobs in Thunder Bay, Vancouver or elsewhere. That's the role of Provincial and Federal governments!
 
The catch is that it's not the TTC or Toronto that is paying for the new streetcars and subway cars. It's the federal and provincial governments.
 
unimaginative2 said:
The catch is that it's not the TTC or Toronto that is paying for the new streetcars and subway cars. It's the federal and provincial governments.
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It's a bit of a pyramid scheme though no? If the government pays Y for a market rate tram and Y+X for a CanCon-ed tram, the X is still coming from Canadians. It will take X taxation to cover the extra costs, which will just induce Canadians to consume X less than they would otherwise, so is anyone really ahead? I think you could probably justify CanCon on a fairness argument though. I don't trust for a moment that the French and German's don't consider where Siemens & Alstrom are HQed when they make a decision. I know Americans have 50% content requirements. Until that is gone, a limited amount of CanCon is justifiable so long as it doesn't compromise the quality of the good.
 
Also, subsidizing an operation that's not competitive with other global players isn't necessarily doing anyone a favour. If Bombardier can't win the contract based on merit, subsidizing it will only further deteriorate its competitiveness and only delay the inevitable.

Having said that, we know that they are in fact competitive globally, though not necessarily for this particular sort of contract.

It's a confusing situation and it definitely sounds like at least some of the parties in the process are on crack.

This needs to be cleared up ASAP.
 
unimaginative2 said:
The catch is that it's not the TTC or Toronto that is paying for the new streetcars and subway cars. It's the federal and provincial governments.
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The other catch being that Toronto taxpayers contribute more to the federal and provincial governments than we get back. It all get's back to Torontonian citizens paying for this.
 
I always found that a very strange argument. I pay the same amount in taxes on my income whether I live in Newfoundland or Toronto. The fact remains that taxpayers in Thunder Bay are paying for Toronto's streetcars, and it hardly seems fair for them to use their tax dollars to put themselves out of business.

Recall that this isn't about "competitiveness." The only organizations that buy streetcars are government-run transit agencies. Virtually every major country in the world has local content requirements. If Canada doesn't buy streetcars from Canadian producers, nobody will, regardless of how competitive the plant may be.
 
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