TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[smallspy]

I want to forum's thoughts on this. Is it worth starting up an effort to make sure that the TTC preserves at least 1 ALRV for heritage service, to ensure they aren't all scrapped? Maybe get a councillor to put forward a motion? Brad Ross had indicated in twitter awhile back that they may all get scrapped. Would be a damn shame. We all know that they could get a pantograph if needed.

The TTC will be keeping at the very least a pair of CLRVs. They are also going to be donating a fair amount of equipment to various museums across the continent, including Halton County in Rockwood. And at this point, HCRY is counting on receiving an ALRV.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Richard White]

The TTC will be keeping at the very least a pair of CLRVs. They are also going to be donating a fair amount of equipment to various museums across the continent, including Halton County in Rockwood. And at this point, HCRY is counting on receiving an ALRV.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I wonder if they can retrofit a coupler on it for posterity and functionality purposes.

 

[Richard White]

JMFC, if we give another streetcar project to Bombardier our city will look like the biggest fools. Fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice.... Surely we must see that the REASON Bombardier is the cheaper option is that they low ball their bids, knowing they can deliver late and with shoddy initial quality and Toronto keeps coming back for more.

Unlike the first round of streetcars, there are now competitors building streetcars in North America. Heck, Alstrom is likely to build a plant here in the GTA, not Sahagún/Thunder Bay.

Alstom to build Metrolinx LRT cars in Toronto, will create 120 jobs
https://globalnews.ca/news/3929485/alstom-metrolinx-light-rail-vehicle/

It makes sense to finish off the order with Bombardier. If you go to another company there needs to be a design, testing and commissioning phase. If Bombardier finishes off the order you pump out the same cars with all the bugs worked out. Using Bombardier will result in the cars being produced alot faster.

I say finish off the run of flexities and order new stock elsewhere.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

It makes sense to finish off the order with Bombardier. If you go to another company there needs to be a design, testing and commissioning phase. If Bombardier finishes off the order you pump out the same cars with all the bugs worked out. Using Bombardier will result in the cars being produced alot faster.

I say finish off the run of flexities and order new stock elsewhere.

You relly seem to be contradicting yourself here. I the end of the first paragraph you sate the obvious reason for sticking with Bombardier and then in the last sentence you want to start the whole design, test and build process all over gain. Unlike with other cities because of the or existing network we can't just get something off the shelf completely any manufacturer other then Bombardier will need to start from the ground up and it will just mean we will have them later.

 

[Richard White]

You relly seem to be contradicting yourself here. I the end of the first paragraph you sate the obvious reason for sticking with Bombardier and then in the last sentence you want to start the whole design, test and build process all over gain. Unlike with other cities because of the or existing network we can't just get something off the shelf completely any manufacturer other then Bombardier will need to start from the ground up and it will just mean we will have them later.

What I was trying to say was once the order of flexities is complete i.e. we don't need or want anymore, go with another company.

Until such time as we are bursting at the seams with flexities or they are so outdated we need new cars it makes no sense to go with another company.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

What I was trying to say was once the order of flexities is complete i.e. we don't need or want anymore, go with another company.

That's the thing the TTC does want more streetcars and if Bombardier can get them faster because they already have lines set up to do it why would you go with another company. If they go with another company instead of getting them staring in 2020 we would have to wait until 2023 o longer well they go through a test and design process with another company. Swapping compies for 100 more streetcars doesn't make any sense with the TTC order. Sure other cities do that but they don't have existing networks to deal with or they don't have tight corners and loops or steep hills to negotiate either

Until such time as we are bursting at the seams with flexities or they are so outdated we need new cars it makes no sense to go with another company.

Yeah in like 20 or 30 years from now.

 

[Richard White]

That's the thing the TTC does want more streetcars and if Bombardier can get them faster because they already have lines set up to do it why would you go with another company. If they go with another company instead of getting them staring in 2020 we would have to wait until 2023 o longer well they go through a test and design process with another company. Swapping compies for 100 more streetcars doesn't make any sense with the TTC order. Sure other cities do that but they don't have existing networks to deal with or they don't have tight corners and loops or steep hills to negotiate either


Yeah in like 20 or 30 years from now.

What we need is an order of 700 cars akin to the PCC fleet we had.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

What we need is an order of 700 cars akin to the PCC fleet we had.

Where are you getting that number from and where do you think they are going to store more 100 foot long cars in.

 

[Richard White]

Where are you getting that number from and where do you think they are going to store more 100 foot long cars in.

I'm working off insane amounts of coffee but suffice to say prior to shipping them off to Alexandria there was a sizable fleet of PCCs resulting from the Bloor cars and Yonge Cars.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I'm working off insane amounts of coffee but suffice to say prior to shipping them off to Alexandria there was a sizable fleet of PCCs resulting from the Bloor cars and Yonge Cars.

We don't need a fleet that big anymore unless they plan on rebuilding those two routes again instead of the relief line.

 

[drum118]

What we need is an order of 700 cars akin to the PCC fleet we had.

What!!!

Yes you would if not more using the same size of cars and the new fleet is longer than the PCC. There is no reason you can't move to 40 meter cars on various routes overtime to deal with ridership.

Sorry, the days are gone for short cars and why you are seeing most systems in Europe going to 35-45-60 meter cars these days. You increase ridership space per car at no cost of adding another driver. Labour is the high cost of running a system at about 80% of operation cost, if not more.

Look at systems in the US todays that are running 2-3 car train at about 2-300' long.

Note: I did say around 2005 I did see TTC having about 700 cars in the fleet, but that for lines not built yet and may not get built. How many cars will there be in Toronto between TTC and Metrolinx by 2022???

 

[Admiral Beez]

It makes sense to finish off the order with Bombardier. If you go to another company there needs to be a design, testing and commissioning phase. If Bombardier finishes off the order you pump out the same cars with all the bugs worked out. Using Bombardier will result in the cars being produced alot faster.

I say finish off the run of flexities and order new stock elsewhere.

It's a NEW order that's being discussed, AIUI.

Let BBR finish the order they have certainly. But, as you suggest above, any new orders should very wary of the lads from BBR.

 

[smallspy]

It's a NEW order that's being discussed, AIUI.

Let BBR finish the order they have certainly. But, as you suggest above, any new orders should very wary of the lads from BBR.

Read the report closely - the real eye-opening stuff is in the graphs. The TTC staff is suggesting that not only do they need the 60 additional cars ASAP, but that there is also another 100 cars above and beyond that will be needed to handle the anticipated ridership by as soon as 2023.

If they put out a new tender tomorrow, there is no way that we would get new cars in time. They don't explicitly say so, but they strongly hint that the prudent choice would be to take the option order for 60 cars from Bombardier now, and immediately start the process for tendering another order for 100 (or more) cars for delivery in 5 or 6 years time.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Read the report closely - the real eye-opening stuff is in the graphs. The TTC staff is suggesting that not only do they need the 60 additional cars ASAP, but that there is also another 100 cars above and beyond that will be needed to handle the anticipated ridership by as soon as 2023.

If they put out a new tender tomorrow, there is no way that we would get new cars in time. They don't explicitly say so, but they strongly hint that the prudent choice would be to take the option order for 60 cars from Bombardier now, and immediately start the process for tendering another order for 100 (or more) cars for delivery in 5 or 6 years time.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Let's see what Premier Ford has to say about Streetcars, starting tomorrow.

 

[dowlingm]

Unlike the first round of streetcars, there are now competitors building streetcars in North America. Heck, Alstrom is likely to build a plant here in the GTA, not Sahagún/Thunder Bay.

Alstom to build Metrolinx LRT cars in Toronto, will create 120 jobs
https://globalnews.ca/news/3929485/alstom-metrolinx-light-rail-vehicle/

Alstom are not listed in the TTC list of responding manufacturers. Maybe they could be listed under Siemens now, given the merger, but it could also be that the Alstom sales team wants to stick to "standard" light rail while not getting in the way of their Siemens colleagues offering an S70.