TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[nfitz]

It would be absurd if TTC gives BBD an option for more cars based on their track record as well failing to meet standards 100%. None of BBD doors work not only on the new fleet, but the TR's as well.

It's absurd we didn't give them the additional option. The 60 additional cars would have been here about one year after first 204, assuming they break their promise, and don't speed production further.

Failing to meet standards 100%? I don't believe that's the case. Working on King Street, I'm now taking the new vehicles daily. I'm yet to see a door issue with the new cars; or even an out-of-service door.

Right now as I type, TTC has 62 Flexity's in service (plus 4463 still testing ...). And at 5:45pm on a Saturday we see that 55 of those vehicles are in service. That there is 89% availability - perhaps higher, as presumably other vehicles have come into, and out of service over the day.

This is not 100% fail to meet standards

I am willing to wait an extra 2 years to get the extra 60's plus from another supplier since I haven't had any faith in BBD for the last 8 years ...

With all respect Dave - who cares what you are willing, and not willing to do?

You don't even live in this city. You are not riding the CRLVs every day ... which are magically turning into buses in a few weeks. The Flexity's are here, arriving at a rate that far exceeds the original plan (which was based on one final assembly line, instead of the two now running). They are far more reliable that what we currently have (though today, I note an unusually high 21 of the more than 33 remaining ALRVs in service and only 72 of no more than 137 CLRVs in service).

To stop production now, of this highly customized unique vehicle, and expect the industry to turn around and offer Toronto something similar from another manufacturer, which may take another decade, and likely cost double, is the height of foolishness.

The only sensible path here is to order another 60 quick. Perhaps those that don't rely on these vehicles for transit, and are more concerned about some non-existent vengeful principle have other ideas ... but there needs to be pragmatism here.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Perhaps those that don't rely on these vehicles for transit, and are more concerned about some non-existent vengeful principle have other ideas ... but there needs to be pragmatism here.

I think the biggest problem is that everyone who read news articles news or blogs thinks they are experts in everything. However, there are people that seem to think that every other company that builds streetcars (LRVS or whatever you want to call them) is perfect and won't ever have parts problems or workers go on strike. Don't forget way back when we only had two in service 4400 and 4403 because they were the only ones delivered before the workers went on strike, originally it was supposed to be along drawn out one so the suppliers stopped production on parts and then everyone had to catch up. Then there are the issues they have been having in the plant in Mexico where the skilled welders are leaving for other jobs once they are trained by Bombardier and they would have to start from scratch. Now Bombardier is making almost monthly flights from Europe using the largest cargo plane in the world to get parts for both the Ion/ Metrolinx vehicles as well as the TTC ones, I haven't seen any other company doing that.

 

[someMidTowner]

I know sometimes I pst things that are incorrect sometimes too.

"Sometimes" is low balling it a bit.

I think the biggest problem is that everyone who read news articles news or blogs thinks they are experts in everything. I know sometimes I pst things that are incorrect sometimes too. However, there are people that seem to thnk that every other comapy that bulds stretcars (LRVS or weaht ever yo want to call them) is perfect and won't ever have parts problems or workers go on strike. Don't forget way back when we only had two in servce 4400 and 4403 becuse they wer the only ones deliverd before the workers went on strike, oragainly it was suposed to be along drwn out one so the supliers stopped prduction on aprts and then everyone had to catch up. Then ther are the isudes they have been having in the palnt in mexic wher the skilled welders are leaving for other jobs once they are tained by bombarider and they would have to satrt from sctarch. No Bombarier is making almost montly flights from Europe using the largest carg plane in the world to get parts for bothe the Ion/ Metrlnx vechels as well as the TTC nes, I haven't seen any other comapy doing that.

 

[Voltz]

I think it would have been politically impossible to order the 60 car option from Bombardier, to much posturing against them because of the delays

 

[pstogios]

I think the biggest problem is that everyone who read news articles news or blogs thinks they are experts in everything. However, there are people that seem to think that every other company that builds streetcars (LRVS or whatever you want to call them) is perfect and won't ever have parts problems or workers go on strike. Don't forget way back when we only had two in service 4400 and 4403 because they were the only ones delivered before the workers went on strike, originally it was supposed to be along drawn out one so the suppliers stopped production on parts and then everyone had to catch up. Then there are the issues they have been having in the plant in Mexico where the skilled welders are leaving for other jobs once they are trained by Bombardier and they would have to start from scratch. Now Bombardier is making almost monthly flights from Europe using the largest cargo plane in the world to get parts for both the Ion/ Metrolinx vehicles as well as the TTC ones, I haven't seen any other company doing that.

This kind of reflexive defense of piss-poor performance by BBD in inexplicably rampant on this board.

Is it because they are ostensibly Canadian? I don’t care; get the job done according to the contract spec.

Is it because they are in a competitive marketplace? I don’t care; get the job done according to the contract spec.

Is it because the TTC changed some requirements? I don’t care; get the job done according to the contract spec that signed off on those changes.

Is it because their suppliers failed? I don’t care; all manufacturers have suppliers-get the job don’t accodding to the contract spec.

What kind of economic conditions would our various levels of government be if they constantly accepted piss-poor performance on all of their procurements? Or if they constantly bailed out companies that cannot on their own survive in the marketplace because of piss-poor execution? In that scenario, Greece’s economic conditions would be positively rosy.

This is taxpayer money we are talking about here. I don’t know about you, but I work my ass off for my income and to see it frittered away on contracts with Snake Oil companies like BBD makes me extremely angry. Not to mention the frustrating scenario TTC is in now with not enough streetcars available.

BBD has massively failed on this contract and they deserve to pay the price according to penalty provisions in the contract, and they deserve to pay the price by being withheld from participation in any future contract. Enough is enough.

 

[TransitBart]

This kind of reflexive defense of piss-poor performance by BBD in inexplicably rampant on this board.

Is it because they are ostensibly Canadian? I don’t care; get the job done according to the contract spec.

Is it because they are in a competitive marketplace? I don’t care; get the job done according to the contract spec.

Is it because the TTC changed some requirements? I don’t care; get the job done according to the contract spec that signed off on those changes.

Is it because their suppliers failed? I don’t care; all manufacturers have suppliers-get the job don’t accodding to the contract spec.

What kind of economic conditions would our various levels of government be if they constantly accepted piss-poor performance on all of their procurements? Or if they constantly bailed out companies that cannot on their own survive in the marketplace because of piss-poor execution? In that scenario, Greece’s economic conditions would be positively rosy.

This is taxpayer money we are talking about here. I don’t know about you, but I work my ass off for my income and to see it frittered away on contracts with Snake Oil companies like BBD makes me extremely angry. Not to mention the frustrating scenario TTC is in now with not enough streetcars available.

BBD has massively failed on this contract and they deserve to pay the price according to penalty provisions in the contract, and they deserve to pay the price by being withheld from participation in any future contract. Enough is enough.

All this kind of rant and thinking is going to cause, as @nfitz points out is cause TTC riders to pay a price or a penalty. It sounds like that is what you prefer. I prefer dozens of new streetcars on the street and not having my feet trod upon on the 504.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

BBD has massively failed on this contract and they deserve to pay the price according to penalty provisions in the contract, and they deserve to pay the price by being withheld from participation in any future contract. Enough is enough.

True they have failed but it still is not enough of a reason to scrap a contract for vehicles we should have ordered TEN YEARS AGO, Scrapping it now would just delay replacing the fleet anymore then it already has. Replacing Streetcars with buses is not a permanent solution either despite what people like the Fords will tell you busses have than then half the Capacity of even one CLRV.

 

[pstogios]

All this kind of rant and thinking is going to cause, as @nfitz points out is cause TTC riders to pay a price or a penalty. It sounds like that is what you prefer. I prefer dozens of new streetcars on the street and not having my feet trod upon on the 504.

I don’t read that person’s posts nor do I care at all what he has to say.

Putting aside your insult about ranting, I’ll respond to you on the substance.

I am not proposing to cancel the contract. I am saying that TTC should recoup damages for that company’s piss-poor contract performance. We would supposedly get all the contracted streetcars plus a certain number more and/or a cash settlement to offset the additional expenses TTC has been forced to incur such as keeping old cars in service and supplanting streetcar lines with buses.

And that company should be excluded from future contracts so as to not reward incompetence.

Or you would just let BBD deliver the cars whenever they feel like it and have TTC subsidize their incompetence by exerting funds to keep old cars in service? And hand them more contracts so we would risk being stuck in this position again in the future? How are customers on the 504 served by doing these things?

 

[cplchanb]

I don’t read that person’s posts nor do I care at all what he has to say.

Putting aside your insult about ranting, I’ll respond to you on the substance.

I am not proposing to cancel the contract. I am saying that TTC should recoup damages for that company’s piss-poor contract performance. We would supposedly get all the contracted streetcars plus a certain number more and/or a cash settlement to offset the additional expenses TTC has been forced to incur such as keeping old cars in service and supplanting streetcar lines with buses.

And that company should be excluded from future contracts so as to not reward incompetence.

Or you would just let BBD deliver the cars whenever they feel like it and have TTC subsidize their incompetence by exerting funds to keep old cars in service? And hand them more contracts so we would risk being stuck in this position again in the future? How are customers on the 504 served by doing these things?

As much as I agree with you unfortunately the recoup cap has already been met based on contract law. I believe it was only in the tens of millions of dollars. Unless they can find some other grievance to sue them on the only thing that can really do is exclude them from the next contract. Even that can get finicky as the lawyers will have a field day arguing for anti competition

 

[KevinT]

I don’t know about you, but I work my ass off for my income and to see it frittered away on contracts with Snake Oil companies like BBD makes me extremely angry. Not to mention the frustrating scenario TTC is in now with not enough streetcars available.

So starting over with someone else at twice or more the price of the optional 60, and having to build a new maintenance facility to service a completely different vehicle configuration, is the best use of your tax dollars how exactly?

 

[TransitBart]

I don’t read that person’s posts nor do I care at all what he has to say.

Putting aside your insult about ranting, I’ll respond to you on the substance.

I am not proposing to cancel the contract. I am saying that TTC should recoup damages for that company’s piss-poor contract performance. We would supposedly get all the contracted streetcars plus a certain number more and/or a cash settlement to offset the additional expenses TTC has been forced to incur such as keeping old cars in service and supplanting streetcar lines with buses.

And that company should be excluded from future contracts so as to not reward incompetence.

Or you would just let BBD deliver the cars whenever they feel like it and have TTC subsidize their incompetence by exerting funds to keep old cars in service? And hand them more contracts so we would risk being stuck in this position again in the future? How are customers on the 504 served by doing these things?

@pstogios - no insult intended. The comments sound like a rant. My reasoning follows. I understand that you feel you didn't get what you bought. If I brought home a dozen eggs and found one missing from the carton, I'd feel robbed too.

But...

There is the expression that the cure can be worse than the disease. This is absolutely one of those cases. In life, in our relationships, in contract law, and in business, there are moments and times when for all the wrong which has occurred, staying the course is the lowest cost way forward. This is one of those times. Remember the expression "Pyrrhic Victory"? It is a victory at great cost. I like winning. But not at all cost and not always for the sake of principle. This is a case where I'll take 260 or however many streetcars we can bash city council into buying ahead of dying CLRVs and ALRVs. It is best to wish the current management of Bombardier all the best in their quest to set this right. Their livelihoods, and to a lesser - although still very important - extent so do ours as Canadians. There are simply not that many large Canadian industrial companies. We can use every one we get.

Kind of like streetcars. We can use every one we get.

 

[DSC]

I think the biggest problem is that everyone who read news articles news or blogs thinks they are experts in everything. However, there are people that seem to think that every other company that builds streetcars (LRVS or whatever you want to call them) is perfect and won't ever have parts problems or workers go on strike. Don't forget way back when we only had two in service 4400 and 4403 because they were the only ones delivered before the workers went on strike, originally it was supposed to be along drawn out one so the suppliers stopped production on parts and then everyone had to catch up. Then there are the issues they have been having in the plant in Mexico where the skilled welders are leaving for other jobs once they are trained by Bombardier and they would have to start from scratch. Now Bombardier is making almost monthly flights from Europe using the largest cargo plane in the world to get parts for both the Ion/ Metrolinx vehicles as well as the TTC ones, I haven't seen any other company doing that.

Of course all manufacturers can and do have problems but the BBD ones have gone on and on and on and they seem incapable of making a revised schedule that they can stick to for more than a month or so. Their problems do not only affect Toronto - look at New York and London. I am all in favour of supporting workers in Ontario (or Canada) but BBD have really blown away their reputation and I doubt they will get many more contracts from those they have deceived in the past. BBD is a real mess and that's not a cause for celebration.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Of course all manufacturers can and do have problems but the BBD ones have gone on and on and on and they seem incapable of making a revised schedule that they can stick to for more than a month or so. Their problems do not only affect Toronto - look at New York and London. I am all in favour of supporting workers in Ontario (or Canada) but BBD have really blown away their reputation and I doubt they will get many more contracts from those they have deceived in the past. BBD is a real mess and that's not a cause for celebration.

Look I'm not trying to defend them but we are stuck with them for this order. New York and London are completely separate from this and have nothing to do with streetcar orders in Toronto. Do I wish we had more new streetcars on the rail yes. It also doesn't matter to me what company they come from to me either.

 

[DSC]

Look I'm not trying to defend them but we are stuck with them for this order. New York and London are completely separate from this and have nothing to do with streetcar orders in Toronto. Do I wish we had more new streetcars on the rail yes. It also doesn't matter to me what company they come from to me either.

Actually you were defending them and their record as a company has not been good in the last few years - their streetcar division may not be involved in many of their other snafus but it is surely relevant in assessing them to look at the whole company. (They may have been devoting most of their efforts to the plane side but that's really not an excuse.) The whole company has suffered (and that includes employees, managers, shareholders and customers.) We do agree on the fact that the ship has sailed as far as the 204 order is concerned and we are stuck with BBD for them ( and MAYBE the next 60 which may - eventually - arrive at a fairly low price. Whether it would be wise to give them orders after that is VERY open to discussion.

 

[nephersir7]

In related news, Bombardier & Alstom are giving out free trains to Montreal as a compensation for the late delivery of the first trains on order (despite having caught up with the delivery schedule since then)

http://journalmetro.com/actualites/...zur-de-plus-a-cause-des-retards-de-livraison/