TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[dowlingm]

Whoever takes over from Byford should immediately get on the phone with Siemens and place an order of 204 cars. Bombardier gets the 60 cars the TTC was considering as an add on to the original order. Even if we have to wait another year while Siemens designs a custom car for the TTC, it’d be worth the wait. Bombardier doesn’t deserve another penny.

The deal with Metrolinx showed that Bombardier will wiggle and wriggle but they avoided cancellation there and I have no doubt they will avoid it with the downtown car. Waiting for Siemens or Alstom to get their act together won't fly - the buses I passed on Gerrard this morning operating the 506 are proof of that.

Even if there was a desire to switch suppliers, it will likely require hundreds of millions or more in capital requirement above and beyond the pricing negotiated and the Province aren't standing by to throw in a third of it. This is borrowing room which isn't even guaranteed for the extra 60 car order never mind an significant increase in the cost of replacing the existing fleet.

There's no point to inventing scenarios which will never happen when we can press for things that can happen - keep the 60 car order process rolling with other suppliers (which may end up being more than 60 if the final Bombardier delivery ends up being less than 204), budget some additional CLRV/ALRV refurbs, go to the Province for an AODA waiver until 2025 or longer (which may be needed anyway if Easier Access slips further)

 

[White Pine]

Since BBD is already in breach of contract, TTC can terminate the contract very easy and back charge BBD for all extra cost incurred to maintain a fleet that was supposed to be gone by now. At the same time, TTC can back charge BBD the extra cost to have the remaining cars built by X as well any other cost it incurred from the date of termination to full delivery of all original 204 cars contract for. TTC can go after any extra cost to buy the option 60 cars over BBD price. Contract law at work in favour of TTC in the end.

TTC needs to place another tender for not only the extra 60 cars BBD was supposed to supply, but the other cars it will need to beef up not only the current system, but the expansion that will be happening in the next 10 years ASP.

I already know Alstom can have a prototype car here within 2 years of signing of contract, but don't know how long it would be for any other suppliers, but no more than 3 years.

Depending on how I look at my past comments for cars being here by year end, I am on the money or 2 cars short for delivery.

The big question thats still remains unanswered, what is TTC going to do about the failure rate that is still 50% less than contracted for? There is an extra cost being incurred to keep the new fleet on the road with the current piss poor rating and who pickup that cost?? There was to be next to no cost for the fleet for the first 10 years, but there is now.

BBD needs to be shown the door even if we have to wait another 2-3 years for X suppliers cars to show up. You can only accept garbage for so long unit is stinks to high heaven.

Do we accept the current delivery numbers for 2018 as stated by BBD or do we decease that number by 15% now?? Depending on how you want to look at BBD deliveries for 2017 using the 4 numbers by them, they miss the target by 10% plus.

What every TTC does for future tenders, a stronger penalty clause needs to be in place from day one when the tender goes out and signing of contract.

4458 in testing on St Clair at my posting

IMO, TTC is better off squeezing everything everything they can get out of this contract, and that includes the extra 60 cars. If they still need more, then they should go back to the tendering process for an extra 40, 60, or however many cars they figure they'll need. Cancelling the contract would be stupid at this point as the production line is going at a decent rate these days. By the time the first revenue service car arrives with a new company (not a prototype), after, let's assume, 3 years, we could have had about 90 cars delivered if Bombardier keeps up at the current rate. (not sure how that rate bodes for the delivery of 200+ cars, but cancelling it would still be a major pain in the butt, potentially causing more problems down the line.

Just bite the bullet, take all 264 streetcars as they come (then collect whatever damages possible), and order more, now if need be.

 

[dowlingm]

Since BBD is already in breach of contract, TTC can terminate the contract very easy and back charge BBD for all extra cost incurred to maintain a fleet that was supposed to be gone by now. At the same time, TTC can back charge BBD the extra cost to have the remaining cars built by X as well any other cost it incurred from the date of termination to full delivery of all original 204 cars contract for. TTC can go after any extra cost to buy the option 60 cars over BBD price. Contract law at work in favour of TTC in the end.

Yeah. Just like it worked for Metrolinx, who are now buying more expensive vehicles and also handed over a contract extension without going to tender. But TTC are going to get everything for nothing.

 

[MetroMan]

the buses I passed on Gerrard this morning operating the 506 are proof of that.

FYI, the buses on 506 were because the CLRVs couldn't operate in extreme cold, not a lack of streetcars.

keep the 60 car order process rolling with other suppliers (which may end up being more than 60 if the final Bombardier delivery ends up being less than 204), budget some additional CLRV/ALRV refurbs, go to the Province for an AODA waiver until 2025 or longer (which may be needed anyway if Easier Access slips further)

I'd be ok with that. Whatever the case, the TTC needs to engage with an alternative manufacturer. Bombardier has no credibility whatsoever. That's an untenable situation since the TTC can't even plan a roadmap because Bombardier's promises are meaningless.

Order the additional 60 cars from Alstom now and as we approach the end of 2019, those Alstom cars will be ready to start rolling off the line. It'll be an additional incentive for Bombardier to speed up. The TTC will buy whatever they can build by the end of 2019. After that, no more cars will be accepted and they lose those cars from the order and Alstom gets the additional cars to the order.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Streetcar 4460 has been delivered: https://twitter.com/fightgridlock/status/948275508084723712

 

[salsa]

Streetcar 4460 has been delivered: https://twitter.com/fightgridlock/status/948275508084723712

*Slow clap*

In the meantime, a whole bunch of CLRVs are out of commission.

 

[nfitz]

FYI, the buses on 506 were because the CLRVs couldn't operate in extreme cold, not a lack of streetcars.

Yes and no. Many of the CLRVs weren't planned to be around any more. And all the ALRVs were to be gone. If they'd have been planning for years to have these units still in service, perhaps they'd have been better prepared for it.

The ALRVs were much harder hit than the CLRVs - there was only 3 out the other morning and 4 today (and 3 now). Which is odd, as I'd have thought the recent life extension would have dealt with that issue. Though all three have been life-extended. But so were 11 more not in service.

Order the additional 60 cars from Alstom now and as we approach the end of 2019, those Alstom cars will be ready to start rolling off the line. It'll be an additional incentive for Bombardier to speed up. The TTC will buy whatever they can build by the end of 2019. After that, no more cars will be accepted and they lose those cars from the order and Alstom gets the additional cars to the order.

Less than 24 months? That seems unlikely. They have to design a car first.

There aren't off-the-shelf vehicles that can use the legacy power supply, climb the required gradient, turn the tight corners, and are 100% low-floor. And then there's the width, which is wider than most legacy European systems. And then there's the ramp requirements.

I'd think we'd be pushing 4-5 years to see the first production vehicles appear.

We've finally seen Bombardier ship about 60 vehicles a year, based on the last quarter when they shipped about 15 from October 1, 2017 to December 31, 2017 (it's not entirely clear to me if 4461 shipped in time or not).

Even if they can't ramp it up to 76, at this rate they'll finish the 204-car order in May 2020 instead of December 2019.

So an extra 60 cars could be delivered by May 2021. Or even July 2020 if they can get back on schedule and ramp up to 76 a year.

Why go elsewhere if Bombardier has already achieved 60? It's not going to be faster. And it most certainly isn't going to be cheaper. And you have another small fleet with different parts.

In retrospect, placing two order of 130 cars each might have made more sense. But that door closed years ago.

 

[Towered]

*Slow clap*

In the meantime, a whole bunch of CLRVs are out of commission.


View attachment 131424

So incredibly annoying. I take the 505 all the time. I hate buses.

 

[Richard White]

So incredibly annoying. I take the 505 all the time. I hate buses.

As well do but there really is not a choice in the matter. It makes you wonder why nobody bothered to install block heaters on the streetcars.

 

[nfitz]

As well do but there really is not a choice in the matter. It makes you wonder why nobody bothered to install block heaters on the streetcars.

Is that even feasible? There must be a great length of air tubes on each car. And wouldn't you still need it in place once they enter operation, if it remains cold?

 

[mdrejhon]

We've finally seen Bombardier ship about 60 vehicles a year, based on the last quarter when they shipped about 15 from October 1, 2017 to December 31, 2017 (it's not entirely clear to me if 4461 shipped in time or not).

Even if they can't ramp it up to 76, at this rate they'll finish the 204-car order in May 2020 instead of December 2019.

So an extra 60 cars could be delivered by May 2021. Or even July 2020 if they can get back on schedule and ramp up to 76 a year.

Why go elsewhere if Bombardier has already achieved 60? It's not going to be faster. And it most certainly isn't going to be cheaper. And you have another small fleet with different parts.

Hold our noses and grudgingly order them now anyway.

With the provision that late deliveries on these specific additionals are much more heavily penalized. Deliver by July 2020 or no payment.

King Street Pilot forced our hand. Put on your biohazard suit and sign that Bombardier contract for another 60 if it remotely looks like other bidders can't deliver at less than double price.

 

[TransitBart]

Is that even feasible? There must be a great length of air tubes on each car. And wouldn't you still need it in place once they enter operation, if it remains cold?

Air, under pressure is still air. And air contains water vapour which is the enemy of (air) valves and pneumatics. The changes in temperature change basic properties of air like how much water vapour it can absorb and dew point. For pneumatics to work properly, it is common to install an air dryer in the system. (We had air dryers in the desert when I worked in a factory in a desert - water vapour would condense at night and the valves in the system would deteriorate more quickly) Whether the CLRVs have such equipment I don’t know. But the issues are due to cold, wet air which even under pressure does not work properly. Hydraulic is superior in that all these moisture issues go away.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Hold our noses and grudgingly order them now anyway.

With the provision that late deliveries on these specific additionals are much more heavily penalized. Deliver by July 2020 or no payment.

King Street Pilot forced our hand. Put on your biohazard suit and sign that Bombardier contract for another 60 if it remotely looks like other bidders can't deliver at less than double price.

Agreed. But fool me twice, shame on me. Subways likely aside, this should be the last time we sole source anything from Bombardier.

 

[rbt]

Agreed. But fool me twice, shame on me. Subways likely aside, this should be the last time we sole source anything from Bombardier.

Toronto Rockets were sole-sourced from Bombardier. The LRVs were done through an open tender with Siemens as the only other bid.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Toronto Rockets were sole-sourced from Bombardier. The LRVs were done through an open tender with Siemens as the only other bid.

To clarify, we should follow the after the fact example of Metrolinx on the Eglinton Crosstown and have dual suppliers, so the bid is never winner takes all.

I’d rather plan to pay more in order to ensure Bombardier can’t short projects and hold a city ransom. With Alstom opening a factory in Ontario, there’s no reason other than the allure of dishonestly-depressed quotes to give the next LRT project solely to Bombardier.