News   Nov 12, 2024
16 Storey Tower Proposal South of Warden Station Grows to 27 Storeys
 904     1 
News   Nov 12, 2024
News Roundup for November 12, 2024
 586     1 
News   Nov 12, 2024
Financial Core Nightlights
 701     0 

TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

There are rumours about massive cuts by Trump to federal support for local transit. Hopefully at least some already committed funding will be honoured but...

As for 4431, it seems to me like Bombardier took everyone off the "stage 1" part of the LRV line and moved them along to the finishing stages as 4430 passed by so that the end of 2016 deadlines could be met, and now they are starting up an empty line again. Maybe that's not what happened but it sure looks like it and is similar to the start of 2016 when there was a long pause in January.
 
dowlingm said:
There are rumours about massive cuts by Trump to federal support for local transit. Hopefully at least some already committed funding will be honoured but...

As for 4431, it seems to me like Bombardier took everyone off the "stage 1" part of the LRV line and moved them along to the finishing stages as 4430 passed by so that the end of 2016 deadlines could be met, and now they are starting up an empty line again. Maybe that's not what happened but it sure looks like it and is similar to the start of 2016 when there was a long pause in January.
Click to expand...
Commissioner Mihevc was asking Andy Byford during the board meeting if a streetcar was to show up this month. Of course Byford don't remember the schedule but said something a long the lines of no. So don't expect one soon.

DSC said:
Steve Munro notes: "On a related point, CEO Andy Byford has agreed to include the delivery schedule for the Flexity cars in future CEO Reports starting in February 2017."
See: https://stevemunro.ca/2017/01/20/ttc-vehicle-reliability/#more-16894
Click to expand...
Of course that means Commissioner Mihevc actually wants to know and asked Byford for the revised schedule he received on Tuesday. Byford promised to send all board members a copy. Another member asked if it could be included in the CEO report and he nodded. Byford said he will hold BBD accountable based on the number delivered every month vs the schedule for every month. We'll see if he actually writes a section for this in the CEO report.
 
dowlingm said:
There are rumours about massive cuts by Trump to federal support for local transit. Hopefully at least some already committed funding will be honoured but...

As for 4431, it seems to me like Bombardier took everyone off the "stage 1" part of the LRV line and moved them along to the finishing stages as 4430 passed by so that the end of 2016 deadlines could be met, and now they are starting up an empty line again. Maybe that's not what happened but it sure looks like it and is similar to the start of 2016 when there was a long pause in January.
Click to expand...
Rather than add conjecture on that point (and it has extreme implications for BBD, as drum has indicated), here's what's showing for a quick Google check:
Trump’s First Budget May Zero Out Federal Transit Funding
By Angie Schmitt Jan 19, 2017
Donald Trump’s first budget will follow a blueprint for extreme spending cuts laid out by the Heritage Foundation, the Hill reports. That could spell disaster for cities, since Heritage recommends eliminating federal support for transit.

Trump’s budget won’t be released for a few more weeks, but according to the Hill, it will draw heavily from a Heritage policy document that calls for taking an axe to conservative targets like the National Endowment for the Arts and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting [PDF]. Of course, Heritage wants to put transit on the chopping block too.

Republicans have tried to pass draconian budget measures like this before, and they haven’t succeeded. As recently as 2015 there wasn’t enough support within their own party for a similar budget that was proposed in the GOP-controlled House and failed, 132 to 294. In 2012, the Republican House majority couldn’t muster the votes to pass a transportation bill that would have removed the guarantee of federal transit funding.

With a new president and unilateral Republican control of Washington, however, believers in slash-and-burn budgets are clearly emboldened.

Here’s how Heritage wants to gut federal support for transit and rail — these are the programs that Americans who support transit may soon have to defend.

“Phase out” the Federal Transit Administration — $4 billion annually
[...continues in detail...]
Click to expand...

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/01/19/trumps-first-budget-may-zero-out-federal-transit-funding/

The irony of the GOP’s new promise to cut mass transit funding? Donald Trump loves trains
By Martine Powers July 20, 2016 WashPost
Nobody’s very shocked that Republican leaders don’t see eye-to-eye with mass transit advocates or bicycle/pedestrian diehards about the role of federal funding in helping people walk, bike and use trains and buses.

But here’s the awkward part: Republicans’ stance on transit directly opposes the views of their presidential nominee, Donald J. Trump.

As the Republican National Convention got underway this week, the GOP released its 58-page platform for the 2016 campaign – including a sizable section on transportation.

[Why transit was key in bringing the RNC to Cleveland]

Their big promise: Republican leaders plan to eliminate Highway Trust Fund spending on projects such as mass transit, bike-share programs, sidewalk improvements, and rail-to-trail projects.

The Highway Trust Fund is a pot of money designated for transportation projects, funded by the 18.4-cent-per-gallon federal tax on gas. That rate hasn’t changed in 23 years … and as everything else in the world has gotten more expensive, the gas tax fund has begun to have less and less purchasing power. [...continues in detail...]
Click to expand...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ss-transit-funding-donald-trump-loves-trains/

Does this bear somehow on the delivery schedule for Flexities? It could have a catastrophic effect, either for or against, it remains to be seen which way this falls, but fall it must.
 
Came across this tram video today and did a bit of reading up on it. Quite interesting read about the use of pivoting bogies with traditional axles and unsprung mass. The Transtech Artic is apparently the replacement for their Bombardier Variobahn trams, which brings up the question: are there any operators with Flexity trams that have experienced structural issues?

http://www.eurotransportmagazine.com/advent-calendar/helsinkis-new-tram-design/

 
drum118 said:
Come one, come all...............Place your bits and dates as to when 4431 will arrive as well 4470.

Place your bit if TTC will do anything regarding the failure rate come car 4452

Place your bit how many free cars TTC will received if the order is completed in 2019

So much for TTC claim that they would have 4431 here this week
Click to expand...

4431: in service no earlier than March 1st.

4470: in service no earlier than July 2018.

Will the TTC do anything about the failure rate as of 4452: no.

How many free cars: 0.
 
How about an "advent" Flexity streetcar calendar? Each delivery one gets a chocolate treat?

b27c98dabd62ac80aa5e16a72c83b824.jpg
 
Re the definition of a "fault" in determining the MDBF, I found this on Steve Munro's website:

The basic standard is that any fault causing a delay of five minutes or greater counts, while all others do not.

There is no distinction between a fault that represents a severe failure of a component or a minor annoyance that simply caused a long enough delay to be counted. Similarly, the cost and effort needed to repair faults does not contribute to the metric.

Source: https://stevemunro.ca/2017/01/20/ttc-vehicle-reliability/

It seems that what this means is that if a door on a Flexity were to get stuck open and it took the operator five minutes to get it closed then that would count as a fault. If the operator gets the door working in less than five minutes it would not count as a fault. The devil is in the details!

I realise that Steve X has already mentioned this article above but it is worth mentioning again partly for the clarification of what constitutes a "fault" when determining MDBF according to TTC metrics and partly for the interviews which are well worth reading.
 
If TTC is to see 40 cars in 2017 starting Feb 1, they should be seeing a car about every 8.2 days. This will mean each line will have to produce a car every 16.4 days stagger to meet the 8 day schedule.

The further we get into Feb until 4431 shows up, the days between cars delivery start to get shorter to the point nothing better happen to the supply chain or in TB to meet the require 40 cars.

If TB can't meet 2017 schedule, 2018 & 19 will be worse to the point 2020/2021 could final delivery years.
 
I have my doubts Bombardier can deliver 40 this year. We shall see of course but my bet is we won't get all the new streetcars until end of 2020. The TTC will need to plan for this inevitability.

I wonder if this means we won't be exercising the option for 60 more to expand the fleet. With the penalty clauses and delays, Bombardier should give away the extra 60 as compensation for their delays.
 
lead82 said:
I have my doubts Bombardier can deliver 40 this year. We shall see of course but my bet is we won't get all the new streetcars until end of 2020. The TTC will need to plan for this inevitability.

I wonder if this means we won't be exercising the option for 60 more to expand the fleet. With the penalty clauses and delays, Bombardier should give away the extra 60 as compensation for their delays.
Click to expand...
You do realize 60 streetcars cost more than $200m and if TTC gets another company to do the job, it might cost hundreds of million more in modifications to the network, training and parts storage. They'll probably need to rent another warehouse indefinitely to hold all the parts too.

I'm pretty sure the contract just says BBD have to deliver all of it by 2019 and not X amount by a specific month in 2017. No way it will result in 60 free streetcars. It's also questionable how much will TTC be compensated at the end of the contract. BBD could say 204 streetcars doesn't meet the service demand and the ALRVs would need to be rebuilt regardless of the delay. The court will decide.
 
Steve X said:
You do realize 60 streetcars cost more than $200m and if TTC gets another company to do the job, it might cost hundreds of million more in modifications to the network, training and parts storage. They'll probably need to rent another warehouse indefinitely to hold all the parts too.

I'm pretty sure the contract just says BBD have to deliver all of it by 2019 and not X amount by a specific month in 2017. No way it will result in 60 free streetcars. It's also questionable how much will TTC be compensated at the end of the contract. BBD could say 204 streetcars doesn't meet the service demand and the ALRVs would need to be rebuilt regardless of the delay. The court will decide.
Click to expand...
More like $350 m to get 60 cars. TTC knows this and it will have to go into 2018 or 2019 budget. The option to order the extra 60 cars was to take place when the 60th car arrive and that was early 2015, yet here we are almost 2 years later and no 60th car yet.

Who said the existing network has to be modify for these extra cars as well parts? TTC will spect the cars so various parts are the same on both fleet. Who every gets an order for the 60 plus cars has to meet the existing system like BBD to the point TTC would have a car or 2 ready for inspection from top to bottom as part of the tender process.

Of course training has to take place like anything thing new, considering over haft of the existing streetcars drivers aren't train on the new cars yet, since there is no cars for them yet. TTC wouldn't be the first systems to have 2 different new fleet at the same time and will not be the last.

What the contract said and what BBD is doing are two different thing to the point BBD is in breach of contract over a year ago. BBD is almost 2 years behind schedule and has already miss the 2018 completion date by a year now. Look at the timeline when the prototype were to be here and miss it by a mile. 18 cars were to be here by Aug 2014 for the reopening of Spadina Line as all new cars, but only 2 where here on Aug 31 opening day. One was a rebuilt 4400 and 4403.

If BBD tries using TTC should had known better than order 204 and should have taken steps to rebuilt the ALRV to meet ridership demand, they will be laugh out of court on that statement. Considering TTC plan to start to retire the ALRV in 2014 and completely scrap them in early 2015 does not bold well for BBD Claim. Yes, TTC should had order 252 as 1:1 from day one, but the city wouldn't have it, not TTC.
 
Last edited:
drum118 said:
More like $350 m to get 60 cars. TTC knows this and it will have to go into 2018 or 2019 budget. The option to order the extra 60 cars was to take place when the 60th car arrive and that was early 2015, yet here we are almost 2 years later and no 60th car yet.
Click to expand...

If 60 cars in the open market is a $350MM cost...how does that compare to the option price in the contract with BBD? The answer to whether the option is exercised may be given in the spread between the option price and the market price.
 
TTC could have done a rebuild of the ALRVs with a low floor centre module but I think that would have been seen as distracting from an effort to rebuild the fleet, especially since the front and back of the LRVs would still have obsolete parts or require re-engineering to accommodate new ones and it would have forced the TTC to confront all door boarding years before they finally did.

TTC has already said they will take compensation from Bombardier in the form of free vehicles but it won't be 60 - more like 6-10 I'd guess. That leaves the remaining ask for City Council at 50-54, but they have to commit by the end of this year, assuming that is when the 60th car finally arrives.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top