TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[pstogios]

TTC 4425 is sitting at the gate of the Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay as of Saturday afternoon, October 1st, 2016. It will likely be picked up by the 2330 switch crew and be repositioned downtown to "E" yard where it will be sent to Toronto on CP Train 420. Thanks to my Thunder Bay CRO contact for the information.

Thanks for this. This means 4425 should go in service 19 days from now, or Oct. 20.

With that pace, we will not get the promised cars before the end of the year.

Oct. 20 - 4425
Nov. 10 - 4426
Dec. 1 - 4427
Dec. 22 - 4428
(4429 before end-2016 is the car that would meet the communicated level)

 

[robmausser]

Thanks for this. This means 4425 should go in service 19 days from now, or Oct. 20.

With that pace, we will not get the promised cars before the end of the year.

Oct. 20 - 4425
Nov. 10 - 4426
Dec. 1 - 4427
Dec. 22 - 4428
(4429 before end-2016 is the car that would meet the communicated level)

While I am not a Bombardier apologist, I believe that they simply have to deliver the car to the TTC for it to be considered, well, delivered.

Testing and when it goes into service are not part of the agreement.

So, as long as 4429 is sitting at Hillcrest with the TTC by Dec 31st, 2016, they should be OK.

 

[dowlingm]

Should we consider the Metrolinx car as potentially part of the same delivery stream, and thus of Bombardier's ability to up the tempo once that ships?

 

[rbt]

Should we consider the Metrolinx car as potentially part of the same delivery stream, and thus of Bombardier's ability to up the tempo once that ships?

Don't see why you wouldn't as the Metrolinx cars are part of the Toronto order; likewise being late on either is late on both.

 

[crs1026]

It's not clear whether the ML prototype was holding a slot in the TTC production 'line' as opposed to being a parallel project at the plant. I can think of logistical reasons why it's the latter, although perhaps with whatever resources becoming available once the prototype car(s) are complete, the TTC output might speed up.

Anyways, we need actual output. Encouraging data is not production. More TTC cars released is production. Bombardier gets no slack until we see production.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

With that pace, we will not get the promised cars before the end of the year.

You are right, at that rate they won't.

Oct. 20 - 4425
Nov. 10 - 4426
Dec. 1 - 4427
Dec. 22 - 4428
(4429 before end-2016 is the car that would meet the communicated level)

4429 would be the 28th car. The promise was 30 cars delivered. Not 28 cars in service. If 4402 does ever show up, then 4429 would still only be the 29th car.

Also recall last year they delivered 4413 on November 25th, and 4416 on December 31st. 4 cars in 36 days. If they pulled off a similar burst, they could still pull it off - barely.

 

[dowlingm]

Don't see why you wouldn't as the Metrolinx cars are part of the Toronto order; likewise being late on either is late on both.

My understanding is that the ML cars are assigned options to the TTC order. The end customer is different and so is the delivery schedule. I wouldn't see the ML order being in default solely by reason of the fact that the TTC contract is backlogged.

 

[Markster]

It's not clear whether the ML prototype was holding a slot in the TTC production 'line' as opposed to being a parallel project at the plant. I can think of logistical reasons why it's the latter, although perhaps with whatever resources becoming available once the prototype car(s) are complete, the TTC output might speed up.

Ultimately, it may be a parallel project, but Bombardier can't really pull the resources from the Metrolinx line to the TTC line, because once they have the prototype done, they have to switch immediately into building a whole lot of Metrolinx ones. Waterloo LRT is already delayed by Bombardier.

From what I heard, projections were that the first several Metrolinx/Waterloo cars will be built in Thunder Bay, and then they will start production in Kingston. When production shifts, then we might see resources from the Metrolinx Line being moved to the TTC streetcar line.

 

[nfitz]

... once they have the prototype done, they have to switch immediately into building a whole lot of Metrolinx ones. Waterloo LRT is already delayed by Bombardier.

Immediately? Shouldn't they be stopping all work for a bit, to make sure the prototype (2?) are accepted, and they don't build something unnecessarily?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed but there appears to be a change to the deployment schedule on the TTC's website ( http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects/New_Vehicles/New_Streetcars/index.jsp ) They list 510, 509 and 514 as now. 505 is listed before 511

 

[Megaton327]

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed but there appears to be a change to the deployment schedule on the TTC's website ( http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects/New_Vehicles/New_Streetcars/index.jsp ) They list 510, 509 and 514 as now. 505 is listed before 511

There is absolutely ZERO chance of Dundas+Bathurst being finished, and Queen started, in 2016. I would, honestly, be shocked if either Dundas, Bathurst, or Queen see a single car before 2017--and I'll even say that I doubt they can finish either Harbourfront or Cherry, never mind both. Let's see!

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

There is absolutely ZERO chance of Dundas+Bathurst being finished, and Queen started, in 2016. I would, honestly, be shocked if either Dundas, Bathurst, or Queen see a single car before 2017--and I'll even say that I doubt they can finish either Harbourfront or Cherry, never mind both. Let's see!

I defiantly agree with you. I think though we will see 514 running all flexes before 509 though given that it serves a much larger area of the city plus helps relive the king car. Also with Exhibition loop out of commission until almost the end of the yer I don't think Bathurst will be started until it reopens to streetcar service.

 

[Markster]

Immediately? Shouldn't they be stopping all work for a bit, to make sure the prototype (2?) are accepted, and they don't build something unnecessarily?

Waterloo is supposed to be getting its first production vehicle in December(!), so I'm afraid there's no wiggle room in the schedule anymore.
Metrolinx has time to request adjustments in their models, but that production line has to keep going.

 

[cplchanb]

Waterloo is supposed to be getting its first production vehicle in December(!), so I'm afraid there's no wiggle room in the schedule anymore.
Metrolinx has time to request adjustments in their models, but that production line has to keep going.

Thats (december delivery) probably not going to happen based on their performance. I expect them to announce another "revised" schedule AKA we are late and have no idea when we'll recover

 

[smallspy]

Ultimately, it may be a parallel project, but Bombardier can't really pull the resources from the Metrolinx line to the TTC line, because once they have the prototype done, they have to switch immediately into building a whole lot of Metrolinx ones. Waterloo LRT is already delayed by Bombardier.

From what I heard, projections were that the first several Metrolinx/Waterloo cars will be built in Thunder Bay, and then they will start production in Kingston. When production shifts, then we might see resources from the Metrolinx Line being moved to the TTC streetcar line.

There are multiple production lines underway at Thunder Bay, and the Metrolinx cars are currently on a separate one from the TTC's. And it sounds as if once the production is moved to Kingston that the line currently assembling the Metrolinx cars will produce TTC's Flexities as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.