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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

nfitz said:
The last tender went out to the entire planet. Unless you change the design specs, I don't see any other option except opening it up to extraterrestrial bidders.
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The market rejected bidding on TTC tender since it was already determine that the work would be done in Thunder Bay.

No one will spend 100 of thousand to Millions to put a tender together knowing you have no hope in hell getting the order even if you are low bidder.

Since the rules have change as well the new Free Trade Agreement are in place, TTC will get a number of bidders you wouldn't think would bid on this new tender. Also, there are now a number of bidders who have plants in USA that weren't there when the original tender was issue.
 
drum118 said:
The market rejected bidding on TTC tender since it was already determine that the work would be done in Thunder Bay.

No one will spend 100 of thousand to Millions to put a tender together knowing you have no hope in hell getting the order even if you are low bidder.
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You might believe that, but I don't think that's true.

They deemed two bids compliant last time before they opened the cost envelope. If the second bid had been lower, there wouldn't have been any choice but to accept it.

drum118 said:
Since the rules have change as well the new Free Trade Agreement are in place, TTC will get a number of bidders you wouldn't think would bid on this new tender. Also, there are now a number of bidders who have plants in USA that weren't there when the original tender was issue.
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Given that FTA hasn't stopped Buy America, I don't see how it would impact the TTC Canadian-content rules.
 
robmausser said:
It was $85 million just to cancel a handful of them for the Scarborough LRT

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...arborough-lrt-but-final-cost-kept-secret.html

And that was because Bombardier was OK with it because they were still building tons for the government for the other lines.

Cancelling all of the order is going to be a big penalty. Huge.
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Rob, the penalties for cancelling the previous order was because Bombardier did not at that time have any fault attaching to them. Once they are forced to admit they will miss the delivery timeline for ION, then the tables turn. In any event, I did not propose cancelling the entire Metrolinx order, merely the portion for the line opening sooner.

I do wonder if the low dollar is causing cashflow issues, if not with respect to the Mexican plant then with third party suppliers.
 
drum118 said:
. Also, there are now a number of bidders who have plants in USA that weren't there when the original tender was issue.
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There are? The only one I know of is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Streetcar and I thought they closed their plant and stopped manufacturing?

It is silly to force the manufacturing to be in Thunder Bay to such a degree that it hinders Toronto's ability to obtain the best deal. Go Transit's latest MPI locomotives are made in the USA, not Canada, though they forced Alexander Dennis to assemble GO's double decker buses in Ontario from European kits. This likely cost much more than buying off the shelf buses. We need to get away from this idea that transit vehicle procurement must benefit the jurisdiction where it is being bought - instead just buy the best vehicles from wherever they're made.
 
And CNR is building a plant in Springfield, Mass to build the MBTA Orange line cars.

Brookvilles streetcar seems more like a niche product to me.
 
Where does Siemens build their cars for Edmonton and Calgary? It would seem like they already have something established to meet the Canadian content requirements
 
Maybe we should just buy from the best supplier rated on product, price and ability to deliver on time, instead of always going with Bombardier just because they're Canadian. Judging by what I see on Toronto's streets, most of us buy our cars that way.
 
pman said:
Maybe we should just buy from the best supplier rated on product, price and ability to deliver on time, instead of always going with Bombardier just because they're Canadian. Judging by what I see on Toronto's streets, most of us buy our cars that way.
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This was one of the first things explained to me when I moved to Toronto. Essentially for something like the streetcar contract, if it wasn't awarded to Bombardier, they would cancel the competition, pay the penalties to the low bidder, and then rebid it so that Bombardier would get it. Not so good for assuring performance
 
Didn't they do it the first time around when they deemed noone was in "compliance"?
Shortly afterwards they reopened the tender and Bbr magically fit the bill. I wouldnt be the slightest surprised
if they rewrote the tender just to allow for bbr to qualify (notwithstanding others who rebid as well). All they really needed to do
was meet the minimums and they were in with a virtual guarantee of price undercut
 
pman said:
Maybe we should just buy from the best supplier rated on product, price and ability to deliver on time, instead of always going with Bombardier just because they're Canadian. Judging by what I see on Toronto's streets, most of us buy our cars that way.
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The thing is Bombardier is far more identified as a international firm rather than a Canadian entity. For example, Bombardier Transportation, the unit producing our streetcars is headquartered in Berlin, Germany, not Valcourt, Quebec. Most of the components are sourced offshore and assembly beyond mating of the final sections is done in Mexico, not Thunder Bay, Ontario.
 
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Probably not going to happen, but why not just ditch the Canadian content requirement? Many good manufacturers from overseas are
losing out because of this rule and it would certainly be more competitive production and cost wise to simply allow for the best overall package win.
That way if something goes well than we benefit, but if it turns south like now, Canadian jobs wont have to take the fall from a lost profit or contract
 
pman said:
Maybe we should just buy from the best supplier rated on product, price and ability to deliver on time, instead of always going with Bombardier just because they're Canadian. Judging by what I see on Toronto's streets, most of us buy our cars that way.
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Certainly not how I buy my cars....at 53 years old I am very proud to say that I and my family have never been tempted to break the one rule that we have about cars ...."we will only buy cars from a company that manufactures cars in Canada" (note: does not have to be the car we buy..that would be too restrictive) but if the company does not have at least one assembly plant in Canada we don't even visit their dealership. :)

That said, if Toronto (or any municipality) is interested in ruling out Bombardier from their procurement....they may have a tougher time sourcing funds from, at least, the Provincial government. In a province/country where Toronto is seen as the big evil city, it makes it a lot easier for a provincial government to send money here if it produces/supports jobs elsewhere in the province.
 
TOareaFan said:
Certainly not how I buy my cars....at 53 years old I am very proud to say that I and my family have never been tempted to break the one rule that we have about cars ...."we will only buy cars from a company that manufactures cars in Canada"
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That does not mean that the car company is American however:

"What could be more American than a Chevrolet Camaro? The answer might surprise you: A study by American University's Kogod School of Business found that the Toyota Camry (78.5%) and the Honda Accord (76%) both contain more domestic content than the Chevrolet Camaro (68%), which barely edges out the Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (67.5%) and the Kia Sorento (67%)."

http://www.carsdirect.com/automotive-news/cities-that-drive-the-most--and-least--american-cars
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/6...ally-tops-list-cars-american-made-content.htm
 
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