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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

The vehicle that Bombardier has been touring around is the one used in Minneapolis. They happen to have it on this side of the Atlantic. It's not clear whether it is the one they were intending to propose for Toronto, and if so, they would have had to redesign it quite significantly, as it's too wide and not compatible with a lot of the curves in the track system. At any rate, it's only 70% low-floor, and the TTC has decided on 100% low floor, so that model is off the table. I imagine they will come up with something derived from the vehicles they supplied to Brussels and several other cities in Europe.
 
something tells me they probably will go with Siemens, since Bombardier already has the subway contract. coupled with the fact that Edmonton and Calgary both sole-source their LRVs to Siemens would probably some way establish a Canadian plant, though they are different vehicles.
 
something tells me they probably will go with Siemens, since Bombardier already has the subway contract. coupled with the fact that Edmonton and Calgary both sole-source their LRVs to Siemens would probably some way establish a Canadian plant, though they are different vehicles.
Noting how their aircraft seem to be losing their wheels, perhaps the Bombardier street car should not our top choice ;)
 
Unimaginative posted this awhile back and I'd like to revive it as my bid for the new LRT system. Well, at least the interior.

5--Barca-Citadis-interior.jpg


Its light, airy, and seemingly accessible (as the TTC has mandated it be).
Anyone know who else utilizes this particular model?
 
It's more seats than any bus or CLRV, for that matter. I believe that's the Eurotram, which is an excellent Bombardier design that would be gorgeous for Toronto.
 
I mean the seat vs open space ratio seems lower than it could be...how long are the vehicles? I only bring it up because there's probably a 99% chance the TTC will steal a play from GO and run very long vehicles at reduced frequencies, so maximizing the number of seats (while still leaving room for people to move around) is important. Torontonians also don't like touching each other while standing so we may not take advantage of the standing room - but people will cram themselves into seats.
 
Unimaginative posted this awhile back and I'd like to revive it as my bid for the new LRT system. Well, at least the interior.

Its light, airy, and seemingly accessible (as the TTC has mandated it be).
Anyone know who else utilizes this particular model?


That interior image is light and airy, but knowing the TTC the colour scheme will be black, gray and dull primary red.
 
looks like a lot more seats on that model than what we currently have.. that "backroom" looks like it's 4-seat-per-row all the way through!
 
Well in general it doesn't matter how much standing room there is in the back. From what I've seen they should make the front standing room only except for a very few token seats for the elderly/disabled/etc. People just refuse to move to the back. Decreasing standing room in the mid-back area but increasing standing room near the front would be much more in-line with the selfish realities of taking the TTC.
 
Well in general it doesn't matter how much standing room there is in the back. From what I've seen they should make the front standing room only except for a very few token seats for the elderly/disabled/etc. People just refuse to move to the back. Decreasing standing room in the mid-back area but increasing standing room near the front would be much more in-line with the selfish realities of taking the TTC.
but with all door boarding that problem might be alleviated
 
Well in general it doesn't matter how much standing room there is in the back. From what I've seen they should make the front standing room only except for a very few token seats for the elderly/disabled/etc. People just refuse to move to the back.

I'd attribute this much less to "selfishness" then to poor design. The Orion VIIs are so terribly laid out that standing in the way back just doesn't work. The CLRVs aren't bad for standing up to the rear doors, but only the few modified streetcars have any room for standing beyond the rear doors with the 2+1 seating. The older high-floor buses (the GMs, even up to the lift-Orion VIIs) don't have this problem so much.

But should it not have to come to having crush loads where people are required to stand in every nook and cranny of a surface vehicle anyway?

That said, I do like the idea of the central "clear" area, with flip-down seats for seniors and disabled, where there's lots of room for wheelchairs, strollers, carts, luggage, bikes, etc, plus standing room with seats (and lots of them) elsewhere. Most modern LRVs here in North America have some sort of set-up to allow this. Some systems, like VTA (San Jose) and Minneapolis have dedicated interior bike racks that can easily stow bikes rush hour or not, with minimal room required.
 
Hi, I'm from Melbounre, Australia and I have some ideas too.

Post

Link to article

Streetcars Of Future Seen At Cne
Bigger, Sleeker; TTC Hopes Next Generation Of Cars On Road In 2010

Natalie Alcoba
National Post

Tuesday, August 21, 2007

A glimpse into the possible future of streetcar transit in this city can be seen at the Canadian National Exhibition as the Toronto Transit Commission continues its drive to replace its fleet of ageing vehicles.

The $1.4-billion contract to replace all of the TTC's 248 cars with 204 longer, greater capacity vehicles is said to be North America's largest light rail deal, and will set the stage for Toronto Transit City, an ambitious proposal to add 120 kilometres of streetcar routes by 2021.

The "TTC Streetcars of Tomorrow" exhibit at the CNE is one way to familiarize Torontonians with the next generation of streetcars, which are slated to be on the road by 2010.

There is barely a need to "watch your step" on Siemens Canada Ltd.'s Combino Plus model, a sleek three-section train that boasts a "100% low floor" and a roomy interior. The company introduced the vehicle to the public last week with wraparound ads in commuter papers.

"Technology has come a long way. They've done their job. They've been around for 30 or 40 years but there are some advantages to new technology, and that's something people should be able to get a sense of," said David Slack, director of communications and public relations at Montreal-based Bombardier Transportation, which is showcasing an LRV model at the CNE. The car on display, which is operating in Minneapolis, is a little bigger than the version the company may propose for Toronto.

Seven companies initially expressed interest in the lucrative TTC undertaking this year, but three eventually backed out, said Stephen Lam, the commission's superintendant of streetcar engineering who is steering the mammoth project. Those were Kinki-Sharyo, a Japanese company that provides light rail vehicles to San Jose; Mytram, a small Toronto firm with strong ties to a Ukrainian company; and AnsaldoBreda, the Italian company behind the beleaguered Boston models that had all sorts of derailment problems.

That leaves four strong contenders -- Siemens, Bombardier, Czech-based Skoda and Vossloh-Kiepe, a German company -- which are poring over a 600-page draft speculation document just released by the TTC that details the engineering peculiarities of the Toronto system and outlines what the city needs from its LRVs.

"We've got a very unique environment compared with typical light rail operations, even for streetcar operations, because our system is very mature and very old and it goes around in very tight areas and neighbourhoods," Mr. Lam explained yesterday.

Spots such as the McCaul Street loop downtown and Neville Park loop on Queen Street East are typically in the 40-to 45-foot radius curve range, he said, significantly more narrow than the 80-foot radius curve that LRVs are used to wrapping around.

Also, the city has relatively steep grades, which may be a challenge for typical LRVs.

"It is possible to do, just at a cost, I suppose," Mr. Lam said of the required modifications. "But our project is large enough now that they are showing interest. If you had a 20-or 30-vehicle order, people would say the front-end cost is not enough to warrant it."

He said the commission plans to release its "request for proposals" this fall and close the competition by February. The contract could be awarded by the spring.

Re: Combino

Well, does anyone here know how the three section version is configured? To understand where I am coming from here is a page all about the Kurzgelenkwagen contruction. I understand that the four section MST configuration is basically a pair of two section units, those who look closely will notice the double length articulations between the units, on the Three Section version prospoed for Toronto, both articulations are double length. But I know of another similar tram design that could be considered.

Re: Bidding

How about the Croatian firm of Kon?ar, and it's CROTRAM TMK 2200, which could be Melbourne's next new tram (discussion).

About the tight turing circles:

I know a solution, design the new trams for bidirectional running and install crossovers near the loops (I realise they won't be able to do all loops at the same time, but we could do it bit by bit as the new trams are introduced). All our trams are double ended, it follows a British tradition (note that we are part of the Commonwealth, and so we copied British practice), and we simply take the advatages for granted.

I was disapointed to see that Alstom is not bidding--my totally non-technical opinion is that their trams are some of the sexiest. Realistically, only Siemens and Bombardier have a chance, I suspect, and I hope there is some real competition between them. This is a HUGE order, and we should really make them chase it. However if federal funding is necessary I think we all know which one's going to win, especially if Stephan Dion becomes PM anytime soon

No way, we have many problems with the Citadis here in Melbounre, it is one of the least favourites of many drivers. See this discussion.
 
I like the green Bombardier model shown a couple pages ago. I think its the same one from the Bombardier ad on tv when she is in Europe and says 'oh look, i built that' or whatever.

http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/img/1111a.jpg

I think the key to this entire debate is research. Has the TTC done its proper due dilligence on what has been successful globally? Surely there has to be hordes of statistics from European cities that discuss just how successful their purchases have been? They need to be investigating this stuff and finding out how the day-to-day users of the models in other cities like them. Bottom line, I just hope they don't botch this and give us streetcars that are sexy, reliable and accessible.

I have heard more than a couple councillors saying they want to bring a more "European" feel to the streetcar experience in Toronto, so why aren't they sticking to it?
 
Re: Combino

Well, does anyone here know how the three section version is configured? To understand where I am coming from here is a page all about the Kurzgelenkwagen contruction. I understand that the four section MST configuration is basically a pair of two section units, those who look closely will notice the double length articulations between the units, on the Three Section version prospoed for Toronto, both articulations are double length. But I know of another similar tram design that could be considered.

Re: Bidding

How about the Croatian firm of Kon?ar, and it's CROTRAM TMK 2200, which could be Melbourne's next new tram (discussion).

About the tight turing circles:

I know a solution, design the new trams for bidirectional running and install crossovers near the loops (I realise they won't be able to do all loops at the same time, but we could do it bit by bit as the new trams are introduced). All our trams are double ended, it follows a British tradition (note that we are part of the Commonwealth, and so we copied British practice), and we simply take the advatages for granted.



No way, we have many problems with the Citadis here in Melbounre, it is one of the least favourites of many drivers. See this discussion.

Welcome to Urban Toronto!

Looking forward to more spirited debates with you.
 

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