TTC Fleet Procurement Strategy - 2022

[cplchanb]

Not sure if this is the right thread to post in, but apparently the new TR order for Line 2 has been cancelled, as reported by Steve Munro and @Reecemartin ?

TTC Cancels RFP For New Subway Trains (Updated)

A Request for Proposals for new subway trains has been cancelled due to lack of funding. The following notice was sent to all vendors on Friday, June 23: The Toronto Transit Commission issued a Req…

stevemunro.ca

Renovate and Refurbish Things, PLEASE!

Far too often, cities and transit agencies take a "new-or-nothing" approach to infrastructure and vehicles, and that's bad!

rmtransit.substack.com

well thats too bad... now the question will be once they go for refurb how much will it be vs new stock. If they turn out to be close to the price of new trains they really shot themselves in the foot.

 

[nfitz]

well thats too bad... now the question will be once they go for refurb how much will it be vs new stock. If they turn out to be close to the price of new trains they really shot themselves in the foot.

The other question is how much will it cost to retrofit ATC. Unless they are planning to make the new signalling system for Line 2 to include support for the legacy system.

 

[cplchanb]

The other question is how much will it cost to retrofit ATC. Unless they are planning to make the new signalling system for Line 2 to include support for the legacy system.

thats a good point. rather than have purpose built trains that have ATC built in its now a shoehorning exercise. who knows how much that will cost since i dont think ttc was expecting this from the start
just watch this be another typical short sighted decision in rather than fronting the initial cost for new trains they make up or surpass the train cost via these upgrades and retrofits for some 20 year old cars that have already passed their halflives....

 

[Northern Light]

Not sure if this is the right thread to post in, but apparently the new TR order for Line 2 has been cancelled, as reported by Steve Munro and @Reecemartin ?

TTC Cancels RFP For New Subway Trains (Updated)

A Request for Proposals for new subway trains has been cancelled due to lack of funding. The following notice was sent to all vendors on Friday, June 23: The Toronto Transit Commission issued a Req…

stevemunro.ca

Renovate and Refurbish Things, PLEASE!

Far too often, cities and transit agencies take a "new-or-nothing" approach to infrastructure and vehicles, and that's bad!

rmtransit.substack.com

One word: Unacceptable.

Here's who to pester UT:

To get more attention, consider writing the Deputy Minister (top Bureaucrat for the department)

Tha'ts Kelly Gillis (she)

kelly.gillis@infc.gc.ca

******

Provincially

The Minister of Infrastructure is Kinga Surma:​

The Minister of Transportation is Carolyn Mulroney:

Go get'em UT

*****

I'm not writing a form letter here for everyone because I know those get discounted, but to assist w/those who want to take the time to write, here are things you may wish to mention

1) This purchase is time-sensitive to ensure vehicles are in place for the opening of the Scarborough Subway Extension to which these governments have contributed.

2) Existing rolling stock is nearing the end of its life, as seen with the Scaborough SRT, leaving replacement too long can lead to serious problems and even system shut down.

3) There is no real alternative to spending a lot of money, a retrofit of existing rolling stock for ATC, in addition to replacing worn parts and interiors, adjusted for life span post refurbishment will cost as much or more than buying new.

***

In the case of the province, highlighting that is is (and it is) in surplus position, means this is affordable.

 

[Kitsune]

... doesnt the new extension need new trains to ensure proper capacity? Or is just there is going to be a longer.. much longer.. wait for trains on Line 2 once the extension opens?

 

[Amare]

We're literally asking for another disaster situation a la ICTS and ALRV/CLRV replacement car situation. How many times do we have to go through some idiotic lack of government action procedure, to find out years down the line that there will be compatibility issues and/or vehicles literally running on their last legs having to be held together by literal duct tape to function?

 

[cplchanb]

We're literally asking for another disaster situation a la ICTS and ALRV/CLRV replacement car situation. How many times do we have to go through some idiotic lack of government action procedure, to find out years down the line that there will be compatibility issues and/or vehicles literally running on their last legs having to be held together by literal duct tape to function?

hasnt this been the mantra of transit in toronto/canada? scrape out every last second of operational life and do refurb over refurb instead of proactive replacement?
look at via rail for example on their HEP dinos.

if only ttc doesnt need to rely mainly on govt handouts..

 

[nfitz]

... doesnt the new extension need new trains to ensure proper capacity? Or is just there is going to be a longer.. much longer.. wait for trains on Line 2 once the extension opens?

An earlier plan didn't require new trains, if they short-turned half of them at Kennedy.

 

[turini2]

We're literally asking for another disaster situation a la ICTS and ALRV/CLRV replacement car situation. How many times do we have to go through some idiotic lack of government action procedure, to find out years down the line that there will be compatibility issues and/or vehicles literally running on their last legs having to be held together by literal duct tape to function?

Utterly embarrassing really - completely agree with this. Imagine how silly the Scarborough Subway will look in 203x, served by knackered unreliable trains... or no trains at all!

My bleak bit of hope is that the TTC is playing 4D chess, and have cancelled the RFP to get the province/Ottawa to come to the table and help pay for the trains. I don't have much hope that this is true!

 

[turini2]

An earlier plan didn't require new trains, if they short-turned half of them at Kennedy.

If the T1 trains had been overhauled.... By 2030, the trains will be 35 years old and at end of life...

The next significant fleet replacement of subway train sets is not planned until 2026 when the existing TI train sets reach the end of their service life.

 

[nfitz]

If the T1 trains had been overhauled.... By 2030, the trains will be 35 years old and at end of life...

And yet London, New York City, and Montreal use trains for over 50 years. Chicago has 40-year old rolling stock. Paris has used rolling stock for almost 50 years (hard to find the precises dates quickly).

Heck - Exo (or whatever it used to be called) had 70-year old rolling stock at one point.

 

[Northern Light]

And yet London, New York City, and Montreal use trains for over 50 years. Chicago has 40-year old rolling stock. Paris has used rolling stock for almost 50 years (hard to find the precises dates quickly).

Heck - Exo (or whatever it used to be called) had 70-year old rolling stock at one point.

I think we need to put some clarity on this........

1) The oldest rolling stock in NYC was in rough shape; Chicago's rolling stock and much of its rail infra is terrible. Makes the TTC look futuristic and slick.

2) Older trains were easier to rebuild/refresh because they didn't have all the electronics which go obsolete.

3) Rebuilding trains is expensive itself and doesn't buy you a lot of additional years. The SRT cars were substantially rebuilt...........it gave them another few years of life......but not another two decades.

4) Rebuilding the T1's means replacing all the electronics, the interiors, but also refitting the trains for ATC and likely rebuilding the cabs as well. Ideally, with ATC we would be running the trains driver-less, but at least, we have shifted to OPTO (one person train operation). In so doing, however, the drivers, require camera monitors in the cabs to see the length of the train in lieu of the guard.

 

[turini2]

And yet London, New York City, and Montreal use trains for over 50 years. Chicago has 40-year old rolling stock. Paris has used rolling stock for almost 50 years (hard to find the precises dates quickly).

Heck - Exo (or whatever it used to be called) had 70-year old rolling stock at one point.

true - but service life is usually the period of time when a rolling stock performs consistently at a reliable level.

The 51 year old Bakerloo line trains are literally rusting away, and London has a central government that doesn't care enough to fund replacements...

 

[nfitz]

true - but service life is usually the period of time when a rolling stock performs consistently at a reliable level.

The 51 year old Bakerloo line trains are literally rusting away, and London has a central government that doesn't care enough to fund replacements...

I haven't noticed Bakerloo train issues when I'm there - any more than other lines. Well other than someone fainting on board at Oxford Circus, when it wasn't hot.

Sure, it's not ideal. But I don't see another outcome, if the province is both going to limit the cities debt, and not provide funding.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I haven't noticed Bakerloo train issues when I'm there - any more than other lines. Well other than someone fainting on board at Oxford Circus, when it wasn't hot.

Sure, it's not ideal. But I don't see another outcome, if the province is both going to limit the cities debt, and not provide funding.

I was in London in April and stayed right next to Lambeth North station on the Bakerloo line - the trains definitely are showing their age, albeit still seem to run fine from my limited exposure. They seemed to be in far better shape than Boston's trains were when I was there in 2016. Boston's 53 year old trains had real operational problems (some doors not opening, open air gaps in the trains in some places, etc.), and they were 45 years old then! I can only imagine what those trains are like today.

Lots of agencies run very old cars - is it ideal? No. Is it possible? Of course.