TTC Fleet Procurement Strategy - 2022

[cplchanb]

the underlying theme in all this is that we are overly reliant on govt handouts for these projects. not sure how but we need to find a way to generate our own cash flows to offset the costs.

 

[Mind_the_gap]

I don’t think this rebuild is necessarily a bad thing, as @Northern Light points out:

Rebuilding the T1's means replacing all the electronics, the interiors, but also refitting the trains for ATC and likely rebuilding the cabs as well. Ideally, with ATC we would be running the trains driver-less, but at least, we have shifted to OPTO (one person train operation). In so doing, however, the drivers, require camera monitors in the cabs to see the length of the train in lieu of the guard.

The shells on the T1s seem pretty well built. A lot of cities are opting to rebuild older stock to modern standards, because trains used to be built to last, example:

Helsinki’s M100 metro trains are being rebuilt this way to last at least into the 2030s:

Exterior, before:

Source

After:

Source

Interior, before:

Source

After:

Source

Everything ”under the hood” has been changed.

All that matters is the extent of the rebuild…

 

[ARG1]

An earlier plan didn't require new trains, if they short-turned half of them at Kennedy.

Maybe, but we still need more vehicles for the YNSE, as well as to maintain higher headways thanks to ATC. Plus we have the Sheppard Subway happening... at some point.

 

[Northern Light]

I don’t think this rebuild is necessarily a bad thing, as @Northern Light points out:

The shells on the T1s seem pretty well built. A lot of cities are opting to rebuild older stock to modern standards, because trains used to be built to last, example:

Helsinki’s M100 metro trains are being rebuilt this way to last at least into the 2030s:

Exterior, before:

Source

After:

Source

Interior, before:

Source

After:

Source

Everything ”under the hood” has been changed.

All that matters is the extent of the rebuild…

The M100's were not refitted for Automatic Train Control; Should that project proceed in Helsinki the M100's will have to be retired (there is no intention to refit them again); the current projected retirement date is 2030.

 

[Northern Light]

I haven't noticed Bakerloo train issues when I'm there - any more than other lines. Well other than someone fainting on board at Oxford Circus, when it wasn't hot.

Sure, it's not ideal. But I don't see another outcome, if the province is both going to limit the cities debt, and not provide funding.

The City has lots of tools to be coercive.

I've just provided UT'ers w/step one. blast the people responsible and get them to change their minds.

We have clear evidence this strategy can be effective, recently........

But there are many other ways to inflict political pain.

***

Put simply, I don't think acquiescing to bad decisions is a good strategy. It tells those in charge that screwing up is ok w/everyone and consequence free. Not my chosen route.

 

[Mind_the_gap]

The M100's were not refitted for Automatic Train Control; Should that project proceed in Helsinki the M100's will have to be retired (there is no intention to refit them again); the current projected retirement date is 2030.

Thank you for the correction! I’m well aware of their failed, joint automization venture with Nuremberg. Somehow it worked there though…

I wasn’t specifically referring to ATC, although you were, but rather about rebuilding old rolling stock. A great example is how the D-stock in London has been rebuilt. You could also say how VIA’s Budd cars have held up better compared to the LRC or Renaissance cars.

I was going by the assumption that the SSE is being built with standard fixed-block signalling.

OPTO could also be achieved with LCD-screens on the platform roughly where the mirror is, instead of wireless relays to the operator’s cab.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Welcome to Rick Leary’s world. He’s putting in quite the effort to bring the MBTA to the TTC, must be longing for the tardy service and infrastructure found in Boston. His disbelief in ATC led to indecisiveness on the project for the BD Line.

 

[allengeorge]

Welcome to Rick Leary’s world. He’s putting in quite the effort to bring the MBTA to the TTC, must be longing for the tardy service and infrastructure found in Boston.

And with Metrolinx foisting the “T” logo on all of us (yes - it’s still a stupid idea) we’re going to resemble Boston for all the wrong reasons.

 

[T3G]

hasnt this been the mantra of transit in toronto/canada? scrape out every last second of operational life and do refurb over refurb instead of proactive replacement?
look at via rail for example on their HEP dinos.

if only ttc doesnt need to rely mainly on govt handouts..

If the equipment was properly refurbished, it wouldn't be a problem. It's only a problem because they failed to do a proper refurbishment on the equipment and then use it long past its expiration date.

NB: even if the funding for the new rolling stock was assured, it would be wise to do a proper refurbishment of the T1s anyway, because the future is unpredictable. As we saw with the CLRVs, a new vehicle being on the way doesn't mean you can just stop investing in the old ones.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

true - but service life is usually the period of time when a rolling stock performs consistently at a reliable level.

The 51 year old Bakerloo line trains are literally rusting away, and London has a central government that doesn't care enough to fund replacements...

Bakerloo trains rode like the old H4s (and I am being generous).

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Welcome to Rick Leary’s world. He’s putting in quite the effort to bring the MBTA to the TTC, must be longing for the tardy service and infrastructure found in Boston. His disbelief in ATC led to indecisiveness on the project for the BD Line.

Considering the current state of affairs at MBTA, maybe he can go back to turn things around /s.

AoD

 

[Mind_the_gap]

If the equipment was properly refurbished, it wouldn't be a problem. It's only a problem because they failed to do a proper refurbishment on the equipment and then use it long past its expiration date.

NB: even if the funding for the new rolling stock was assured, it would be wise to do a proper refurbishment of the T1s anyway, because the future is unpredictable. As we saw with the CLRVs, a new vehicle being on the way doesn't mean you can just stop investing in the old ones.

Just to add, if the SSE opens in 2030, the youngest T1s will only be ~29 years old (1995-2001 procurement). It would be a shame not to do a proper refurbishment on them.

 

[nfitz]

Just to add, if the SSE opens in 2030, the youngest T1s will only be ~29 years old (1995-2001 procurement). It would be a shame not to do a proper refurbishment on them.

I think they'd very much have to, if there's no order in place at that point.

Though the new mayor just got elected very much on her Scarborough support and her promise to fix TTC, especially in Scarborough.

 

[drum118]

Been on some old equipment that was over 40 years old where there was only a curtain around the driver on the left side of the car.

If they are refurbishing the cars, they should look at making them articulate with a door between the 2 car setup to allow riders to move from car to another freely.

Taking a step further, do what they do in Europe where the front of the train has the ability to allow riders to transfer from car to car if that lead car has another car attach to it. Only have to look at GO BiLevel to see it.

With the new mayor in town, it will take her time to change things around with a hope she shows Rick Leary’ the door. Then we could end up with someone worse.

 

[nfitz]

With the new mayor in town, it will take her time to change things around with a hope she shows Rick Leary’ the door. Then we could end up with someone worse.

Hopefully, but I'd be surprised.

But I would also be surprised to see TTC Chair Burnside is still there this fall! I struggle though to know who to suggest, with a passion to fix it. Maybe Bradford, depending on which hat he wears for the next 3 years. It certainly needs a councillor who regularly rides TTC.