TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[roch5220]

In a city of millions like Toronto, someone's always going to have to live farther away from the central areas than they would like.

People always have to make sacrifrices for what they want, and feel is best for their families. However, one shouldn't expect subways in the burbs that are more typical within a central part of a city. When housing costs start hovering around 1000/sq foot, then peoples choices start becoming limited. But prices are still reasonable within a lot of areas of 416 so for those who still wish to live in 905 and commute to 416, then they know what they have to do to get to work.

But speaking in a macro level, the higher households incomes are located in 905 which generally leads me to believe that its the more well to do moving out.

 

[roch5220]

Hence why areas outside of MCC within Mississauga have gotten jobs, e.g. the Airport Corporate Centre, Heartland, Meadowvale (all basically along the 401).
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Which is what I already mentioned. But this doesn't justify a subway line. MCC is already being growing UP do to the lack of space. But what are the transit options for these people? How would a subway line benefit most of them? The best solution would be improvements to MT, creating an LRT network to backbone the system that connects MCC to all go stops, as well as increasing feeder bus service. For a billion, you could do this. Instead, are you going to spend that billion connecting it to the BD line that would benefit only a smaller amount of people that work in smaller white collar emplyment nodes along the existing subway network?

Square One is the biggest mall in the GTA without a subway stop

ITs a big ass mall thats for sure. What is it, 2nd largest? Lets have a subway system that connects all of the malls. YOu can hit sherway when connecting it to sq1. Maybe if you have a subway stop in the valleys, it might generate decent ridership at that stop, but that corridor isn't dense enough to take signfiicant people out of the cars and take transit to the mall. Plus, most people will want to drive to the mall.

 

[roch5220]

Places of work can change suddenly, especially given the decline of jobs for life in the corporate sector

Well, actually, office employment downtown has dropped only 2% between 2001-2005, after large increase from the late 90s.

 

[roch5220]

It's all too easy for young, mobile urbanites to criticize others for not choosing to live where they think they should.

It has nothing to do with stereotyping. Moreso, people wanting to maximize their individual positions.

Laying individual blame for Toronto's regional dynamics over the last half-century makes no sense

As far I as I know, Toronto's population was under 1.4MM in 1955. With a population well over 5MM in 2005, not including the sprawling neighbouring CMAs that Toronto has engulfed, either Toronto's residents have been multiplying like bunnies, or residents 50 years ago that fall under your category lived in farms out in oakville. People living here along time would be located closer to the central part of Toronto because even in the early 80s, sq1 was surronded by farmland.

 

[ahrvojic]

Exactly, so one shouldn't complain about gridlock and poor public transit when the chicken that is low-density suburbanism comes home to roost in a big way.

Say someone is a highly skilled and educated worker in the relatively volatile IT sector. In the GTA they're going to be employed in one of 3 places: Markham, Mississauga, or downtown. Where should they live?

 

[ahrvojic]

As far I as I know, Toronto's population was under 1.4MM in 1955. With a population well over 5MM in 2005, not including the sprawling neighbouring CMAs that Toronto has engulfed, either Toronto's residents have been multiplying like bunnies, or residents 50 years ago that fall under your category lived in farms out in oakville. People living here along time would be located closer to the central part of Toronto because even in the early 80s, sq1 was surronded by farmland.

Right, Toronto had nothing to do with the region's growth and the region has nothing to do with the city's success. How neat and tidy.

 

[roch5220]

Say someone is a highly skilled and educated worker in the relatively volatile IT sector. In the GTA they're going to be employed in one of 3 places: Markham, Mississauga, or downtown. Where should they live?

Its ok to admit that if the person in this 'example' would have to experience a lot of uprooting problems if they chose to move everytime they had to take on new work, either if they are a contractor or if they are taking the first available job available. I also know of large companies that have forced people to move from downtown Toronto to the burbs, in order to lease our their downtown space at higher rates, and make money off of it. But that doesn't justify providing expensive rapid transit lines to overserve a segment of population where the cost benefit doesn't make sense.

Its like the teacher who complains they make too little money. But they knew the money they would make before they every studied to become a teacher.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"People always have to make sacrifrices for what they want, and feel is best for their families."

You really think the entire population of the GTA can fit within an area that's within easy reach of existing subway lines, don't you? We'd have to sacrifice a heck of a lot to fit them all in, starting with every building under three storeys. Bye Bye Rosedale, you're being replaced with Tehran or Sao Paulo style tenements.

"But speaking in a macro level, the higher households incomes are located in 905 which generally leads me to believe that its the more well to do moving out."

Exactly - Rosedale, Forest Hill, Bridle Path, Kingsway, North Toronto, Leaside, Willowdale, etc...who can argue that these places are the poor cousins of well to do Brampton and Oshawa?

"Higher" incomes than what, Jane & Finch? Like that's an accomplishment given the 905 has almost no housing stock for low income families.

"Lets have a subway system that connects all of the malls."

That's not a bad idea.

 

[Ed007Toronto]

You really think the entire population of the GTA can fit within an area that's within easy reach of existing subway lines, don't you? We'd have to sacrifice a heck of a lot to fit them all in, starting with every building under three storeys. Bye Bye Rosedale, you're being replaced with Tehran or Sao Paulo style tenements.

If they had built the suburbs the same way and with the same densities of old Toronto then yes you could have had many more people living along subway lines. Not the exisiting ones but new ones that would have been built to handle this traffic. Instead we talk about subway lines through low industrial areas to regional malls. That is the issue.

 

[ahrvojic]

Its ok to admit that if the person in this 'example' would have to experience a lot of uprooting problems if they chose to move everytime they had to take on new work, either if they are a contractor or if they are taking the first available job available.

That's a nice world you live in where everyone has their choice of jobs in their favourite location.

I also know of large companies that have forced people to move from downtown Toronto to the burbs, in order to lease our their downtown space at higher rates, and make money off of it. But that doesn't justify providing expensive rapid transit lines to overserve a segment of population where the cost benefit doesn't make sense.

No, but it also doesn't justify blaming and even punishing millions for living where they live.

Are we going to now simply throw our hands up and allow traffic congestion to kill this city's economy and quality of life? Are we going to have to wait another few decades until we have the horrible problems to prove that we should build a subway where we should've already built one ages ago?

Its like the teacher who complains they make too little money. But they knew the money they would make before they every studied to become a teacher.

We need everyone to do different things and maybe even what they do best, not just what pays the best salary and allows the greatest geographical flexibility.

 

[doady]

By the way, I was commenting on employment growth. Even the city of Missy had to adjust their plans as this such growth was not being acheived.

But again, these figures points to why a subway being built to MCC doesn't make sense, as the commutters travelling along the BD line, and north of yonge (as commutters travelling downtown would just take the GO - or is serviced adequately by GO) arn't signficant enough.

Employment in MCC would easily rival that of NYCC or Yonge-Eglinton if it had a subway connection. All those parking lots would be redeveloped in new office buildings.

And GO Trains do not serve MCC, I don't see it as an alternative to subway.

 

[dashingdan]

i agree with doady again. if mcc had a subway connection, it would be comparable to north york in terms of employment. still, i think mcc should be the farthest point west the subway should service. west mississauga is very low density, and oakville even less dense. east of mcc, mississauga is pretty old and like along bloor street there's a lot of townhouses and apartment buildings. i always imagined that bloor street in mississauga is what scarborough probably looks like, although the only parts of scarborough i've seen look more like mississauga than what i envision scarborough to look like (for example near the scarborough bluffs).
to the east, scarborough town centre definitely warrants a subway in my opinion. whether any farther east is cost-effective, i have no idea. to the north: york is sparsely populated, so i don't even think the subway should go up there, but if it had to, i'd do it along yonge street, and probably not much farther than steeles.

 

[Brighter Hell]

A rapid transit connection to MCC doesn't have to be a subway. There are so many other technologies available, like LRT or regional rail going directly downtown, that could be built cheaply, encourage growth, and handle the capacity. Most cities have a dense network of subways in their most dense, central areas, something Toronto is sorely lacking. That needs to be addressed before the suburbs get more subway lines.

 

[roch5220]

^thats exactly the point I raised before. spending a billion on further extending the subway to MCC isn't going to that effective. But spending a billion on an LRT grid withing mississauga connecting it to the GO stations (albiet, GO has to improve as well) is far better. Why try to extend the TTC network into Mississauga instead of focusing on Mississauga and the MT network.

 

[Brighter Hell]

It's about the only transit improvement that would make a real difference I think, given that the commuter rail options we've discussed here before depend on securing electrified rail corridors and the complete reorganization of GO (hah!).

Is the reorganization of GO really that farfetched? GO is buying Ottawa's DMUs so they're already thinking of changing service to more of a regional rail system, at least in a trial basis. There was serious talk a few years ago about electrification of the whole network. If that happened there could easily be lines on streets or in tunnels instead of strictly on rail lines. It wouldn't be any harder than building a subway line.

Thousands of others travel even further west!

"Thousands" isn't much. Hundreds of thousands use the streetcars downtown every day. More subway lines to serve them would be much more useful.... and encourage a lot more growth.