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TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

AlvinofDiaspar said:
I thought these are the 4 test stations

− Package 1A – North York Centre Station;
− Package 1B – Lawrence Station;
− Package 1C – Glencairn Station; and
− Package 1D – Old Mill Station.

NYCC and Lawrence are both fairly busy, but not impossibly so. Maybe they wanted to cover all the different typologies required?

What I don't get is how low Yonge/Bloor gets (almost to the end of Phase 4) - considering the concurrent station expansion works.

re: Rope barriers in Korea and Japan

Considering how generally orderly their societies are compared to ours - I can see why they can get away with using that and we couldn't/shouldn't.

AoD
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In my post up page, the text of the report clearly identifies Dundas/TMU for the pilot.

But you are correct that the Feasibilty study identified the 4 stations noted for the first install.

Interesting that the two do not agree.
 
Northern Light said:
In my post up page, the text of the report clearly identifies Dundas/TMU for the pilot.

But you are correct that the Feasibilty study identified the 4 stations noted for the first install.

Interesting that the two do not agree.
Click to expand...
I'd assume the first installs are after the text.

The criteria they presented for the test station was heavily used. And I can't think of a better station than Dundas - one of the busiest on the system. Where overcrowding is frequently observed.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
I thought these are the 4 test stations

− Package 1A – North York Centre Station;
− Package 1B – Lawrence Station;
− Package 1C – Glencairn Station; and
− Package 1D – Old Mill Station.

NYCC and Lawrence are both fairly busy, but not impossibly so. Maybe they wanted to cover all the different typologies required?

What I don't get is how low Yonge/Bloor gets (almost to the end of Phase 4) - considering the concurrent station expansion works.

re: Rope barriers in Korea and Japan

Considering how generally orderly their societies are compared to ours - I can see why they can get away with using that and we couldn't/shouldn't.

AoD
Click to expand...
I read through the reports last night, Dundas will be a pilot to test installation of the PEDs, with NYCC, Lawrence, Glencairn, and Old Mill being used as tests for the 4 different typologies. In regards to Bloor-Yonge, I think it's because of the existing expansion project delaying any installation until later, with the construction schedules in Schedule F showing work on BY starting in 2032 which would put it around the end of BY's expansion I believe.
 
Some interesting stuff in the feasibility report, particularly for the more technically minded among you.

For now, I want to bring this chart forward, with Dundas separated out to highlight it:


1750175617445.png

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1750175746227.png


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1750175549207.png


1750175678530.png
 
ethan.l.cecc said:
I read through the reports last night, Dundas will be a pilot to test installation of the PEDs, with NYCC, Lawrence, Glencairn, and Old Mill being used as tests for the 4 different typologies. In regards to Bloor-Yonge, I think it's because of the existing expansion project delaying any installation until later, with the construction schedules in Schedule F showing work on BY starting in 2032 which would put it around the end of BY's expansion I believe.
Click to expand...

There's a construction schedule in the appendix. This is the one for the pilot station: (In-Station construction begins 2027, commissioning Dec '28)

1750176018379.png

1750175937146.png


Station Packages 2A and 2B would be commissioned by Dec '31
 
Seeing the cost of doing every station in the network, I think I would be satisfied if the TTC ultimately decided to just implement PEDs on the 30-40 busiest stations in the network including those that have the most safety incidents/incidents causing delays (Looking at you: Sherbourne, Wellesley)
 
I struggle to understand the cost escalation that has gone on here. A new subway train with 48 doors is going to cost about 27 million, while 48 doors on the platform, sans the rest of the train, would cost 50% more, or about a million per door. Is this just the engineering world taking North American governments to the cleaners yet again? Madrid has apparently initiated a purchase of doors for all of its 28 stations on line 6 for 100 million Euros.
 
CapitalSeven said:
I struggle to understand the cost escalation that has gone on here. A new subway train with 48 doors is going to cost about 27 million, while 48 doors on the platform, sans the rest of the train, would cost 50% more, or about a million per door. Is this just the engineering world taking North American governments to the cleaners yet again? Madrid has apparently initiated a purchase of doors for all of its 28 stations on line 6 for 100 million Euros.
Click to expand...
Theres a difference between purchasing doors and hiring consultants to design a system to integrate the doors and the stopping system
 
generalcanada said:
Theres a difference between purchasing doors and hiring consultants to design a system to integrate the doors and the stopping system
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There's a difference between buying doors, and rebuilding the platforms to support them! And powering them. And replacing all the lights in the stations (which hopefully gets rid of the last of the dimmer, dingier, lighting).
 
Well there's certainly a difference between doing it in Spain and doing it in Canada. One article describes it this way.

1750262756324.png


It goes on to describe another contract of 83.5 million Euros for new signalling and integration. It still sounds to me as though they are spending less than CAD 300 million for the whole shebang, which would buy 7 stations in Toronto. This is in line with the material we have seen on NA vs. European costs for rapid transit construction.
 
IRT_BMT_IND said:
One issue with PEDs is there is a lot of experience in Asia, but not so much in North America. It's a huge advantage when the nessessary engineers, spare parts supply etc are in your own country and not the other side of the world. I can imagine the TTC having to get on a frantic Zoom call with engineers in France or Japan to troubleshoot when the system fails at a major station.

And if a train overshoots and can't open the doors I would suspect the course of action would be to skip the stop and continue on. Which is less disruptive than either isolating certain doors or going through the procedures to reverse the train. I actually saw this happen years ago when a train overshot the stop marker and ended up with the first doors in the tunnel.
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Not really the case. Montreal is having no issues with their doors (they've sadly had issues with many other things) on the REM. There are also innumerable airport people movers with PEDs.

On the issue of testing I agree that a bad look would be . . . bad, but people know that screen doors work. They are everywhere in India, China, France, etc etc etc I assume Singapore, HK, Japan, France have ironed out any issues with deploying them onto a busy railway and testing them.

Re. Cost, it does seem very high, but IIRC lower than before. It's surely in part the usual reasons, part outsourcing to consultants. Obviously some serious construction is needed in some cases, but given how many old stations in Japan have gates (albeit usually half height - which should be harder because you are putting all weight on the platform) I think we could probably figure out how to install them with less modification and cost.
 
Northern Light said:
This is at the Commission as I type.

An interesting stat just came up...........this year, 2025, to-date (so about six months in)....218 delays related to unauthorized person at track level. More than 1 a day.
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to know where these issues arose be it Downtown or somewhere like VMC
 
Reecemartin said:
Re. Cost, it does seem very high, but IIRC lower than before. It's surely in part the usual reasons, part outsourcing to consultants. Obviously some serious construction is needed in some cases, but given how many old stations in Japan have gates (albeit usually half height - which should be harder because you are putting all weight on the platform) I think we could probably figure out how to install them with less modification and cost.
Click to expand...

On cost......... I found an FOI for the cost of installation on the Elizabeth Line retrofit in London, UK. Converting to Dollars, and with an inflation adjustment it comes in at well less than 1/2 the number proposed here.

 
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