TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

[daptive]

I see the reasoning behind PSD but I must admit that for older stations, I think the higher priority should be to make them 100% accessible.

As for the PSD themselves, I don't like the ones like the UPX. I find the wall to ceiling ones very claustrophobic . I vastly prefer the ones that are about 2 meters high. They provide all the same benefits but I don't feel like a mouse in a cage waiting for the trap door to open.

Sorry to use the mad emoji, wish there was a ‘disagree’ reaction that wasn’t so angry.

I think floor to ceiling are the only only ones worth getting, and for more than just superior aesthetics (imo)

There’s 0 chance a motivated jumper could get on the tracks, garbage and debris can’t get on the tracks, stations can be better heated and cooled, and brake dust from the trains won’t circulate throughout the station.

I think if we’re gonna add any doors—and full height ones are feasible—then we should go all the way and do it properly.

 

[Megaton327]

As for the PSD themselves, I don't like the ones like the UPX. I find the wall to ceiling ones very claustrophobic . I vastly prefer the ones that are about 2 meters high. They provide all the same benefits but I don't feel like a mouse in a cage waiting for the trap door to open.

At the UPX stations they provide a sizable benefit in that they seal the station from outside air when a train is not present (and there isn't a ton of airflow when the train is present). A traveller living in a building connected to the PATH, travelling to a warm destination in the winter without a ton of luggage, can easily wear lighter clothing and take the PATH and Skywalk to Union UPX, and not be exposed to any significant amount of cold air at any point on their journey. On a more practical/common note, this saves on climate control costs and carbon emissions significantly. Ditto for the Pearson Link stations. I personally find full-height doors to be much more premium and modern.

 

[trtcttc]

The TTC is the organization i'd trust the least with being able to do anything like this without having daily operational screw ups.

ATC is a definite requirement before they start operating PSDs anywhere regularly.

I probably agree but it’s unfortunate we (rather ttc management) just accept mediocrity when it really requires just being more careful, not some magical skill the operators shouldn’t have already.

Also wonder if they need to budget for regular replacement in Toronto, we all know that thing is going to get smashed at some point? Imagine the delay…

 

[nfitz]

I've lost track of the status of ATC for Line 2.

I noticed that this weekend's closure from Victoria Park to Kennedy is for "signal upgrades". Are they actually starting ATC - I don't recall it being tendered?

Or is this just maintenance?

2 Line 2 Bloor Danforth Victoria Park to Kennedy full weekend closure June 3 and 4 2023

www.ttc.ca

I believe this is prep work for ATC.

Yes, I see mentions in a recent TTC report of the enabling works for the Line 2 ATC are underway - with a scheduled completion of ATC date of 2035. Though they warn that this could be delayed, as there are risks the T1 replacement won't be complete until 2035.

 

[felix123]

Once again, I picked stations at random.

Every single station on the Marunouchi Line has PSDs. Will the renovation add PSDs? Why is this relevant to what I'm saying?

Your example comparing Otemachi station to College is valid. Even the TTC's transfer stations like St. George look like dog$#!% by comparison, and there are no PSDs, which was one of your main points. I don't know why anyone would defend them. They need to be improved, not least for safety. A reno at B-Y is not going to help that much.

 

[duty free]

As for the PSD themselves, I don't like the ones like the UPX. I find the wall to ceiling ones very claustrophobic . I vastly prefer the ones that are about 2 meters high. They provide all the same benefits but I don't feel like a mouse in a cage waiting for the trap door to open.

sorry, but i also disagree. they do not provide all of the same benefits. the PSD's you prefer do nothing to prevent debris/garbage from being thrown onto the tracks themselves.

 

[SashaLemon]

Your example comparing Otemachi station to College is valid. Even the TTC's transfer stations like St. George look like dog$#!% by comparison, and there are no PSDs, which was one of your main points. I don't know why anyone would defend them. They need to be improved, not least for safety. A reno at B-Y is not going to help that much.

I like how the excuse was "it was renovated". Yes, lets renovate it again!

 

[Northern Light]

I like how the excuse was "it was renovated". Yes, lets renovate it again!

Excuse?

I pointed out it was renovated because it was stated that it had not been. I corrected an error.

There was no 'excuse' involved.

What an absurd statement.

Unlike some other posters here (though like many) I actively lean-in to make our City better. I have advocated for PEDs for decades; and been involved specifically in getting the TTC to commit to them in the Bloor-Yonge project.

No one, is opposed to upgrading subway stations or PEDs.

Rather, its important to have an informed conversation that avoids wild exaggerations and seeks to provide accurate information on which to base discussions.

****

Now, the TTC has literally billions of dollars of unfunded state of good repair, billions in funds are needed to replace aging vehicles, upgrade accessibility, achieve compliance with the Fire Code; on top of any expansion needs.

Its neither impossible, nor undesirable to pursue major station upgrades; but it isn't so simple either. That's not an 'excuse', that's an explanation.

Also worth adding, that aside from all the ongoing accessibility renos, that Y-B is getting its 1.5B gut job, Union was done; King is getting a massive spend with a vastly enlarged concourse, new exit and elevators....

Even College is getting elevators and second exit.

Also, I see kvetching about St. George .........that's on the list for a Bloor-Yonge -Style reno with 2 additional platforms and a total gut job, that project is hoped to roll out when Bloor-Yonge raps up.

****

In the meantime, if you'd like to help advocate for PEDs at all stations, you need to advocate for 20-30M per station (I would hope the lower end estimate, but construction inflation is a thing); the entire system will cost about 2B in today's money.

If you would like comphensive station renovations, those will vary in cost based on the station; but a smaller station, a purely aesthetic overhaul with no structural changes should run about 15M for new wall tiles, light fixtures, ceilings and refinished floors, that number could be up to 5x higher in the largest stations.

If you want to add capacity at the same time, with additional vertical circulation or make stuctural alterations to add sky lights, higher ceilings, public washrooms etc. these will have ranges all over the map, but start at an additional 15M per station, minimum and again this could go much higher.

I'm happy to support greater funding for transit, start sending emails now about the tax increases you would be happy to support in 2024!

***

Just to add, every station between Union and Eglinton on Line 1 has had at least one major renovation since opening. This is also true of St. Andrew, Osgoode, and Museum (though the latter was on the cheap)

On Line 2, to this point, no station has had a comprehensive reno; though Victoria Park was very close (added platform level windows, demolished old parking structure and bus terminal, added elevators, made exterior changes, partial new ceiling finishes, limited new wall finishes)

Warden and Islington will get similarly scaled renos over the next 2 years.

 

[afransen]

In the meantime, if you'd like to help advocate for PEDs at all stations, you need to advocate for 20-30M per station (I would hope the lower end estimate, but construction inflation is a thing); the entire system will cost about 2B in today's money.

Just the sheer number of service disruptions on the subway is a huge problem. PSDs may not completely eliminate these, but it would do a lot to help. Seems like a not-unreasonable price to pay for the improved reliability, and might even be politically sellable given safety concerns around pushings/falls etc.

I would hope the YNSE stations are all being built with them, as the cost in the context of new build stations is minor.

 

[SashaLemon]

I must use words wrong or something. Maybe "response" is better then excuse. I was not trying to imply the station was never touched ever, I was *literally* just looking at the general state of repair and how modern it is. I also mentioned in a later post I assume the Japanese station was renovated more then once. Which you know, this is just a thing in North America. We don't spend the money. When your metro system is actually the #1 single most important and critical piece of transportation infrastructure (like Tokyo)... you keep that thing in it's peak condition! We agree with this I just somehow get into arguments with people I agree with for silly reasons! I don't know how it happens...

 

[nfitz]

Has any station been renovated more than Bloor-Yonge? They've just started major renovation number three - and they aren't exactly fooling around with the $1.5 billion price tag. And there's certainly been other smaller projects there done at other times, such as multiple elevator installations, and the mezzanine at 1 Bloor East.

 

[Northern Light]

I must use words wrong or something. Maybe "response" is better then excuse. I was not trying to imply the station was never touched ever, I was *literally* just looking at the general state of repair and how modern it is. I also mentioned in a later post I assume the Japanese station was renovated more then once.

Yes, you chose words that read as insulting.

"I like how the excuse' as a start of a phrase has these problems.

1) The "I like' is clearly sarcastic, as you did not in fact like what was said.

2) The word excuse is something we use in English, by and large, for answers we don't like or don't believe. ie A teacher rolling their eyes, about a student who didn't hand in their assignment, because, they said "The Dog ate it"

Changing excuse to response may help at the margins..........but you're still stuck with an opening that will have your statement read to the effect " I'm annoyed at the BS response"

If that's not what you mean, the entire sentence pretty much needs to be scrapped.

Better versions could be:

" I was disappointed to read that response because..............(fill in)"

Or "I know many stations, including the one I gave as an example have been renovated; but I would still support further renovations to improve their appearance/capacity etc.'

That last one I like, and would be happy to endorse.

Which you know, this is just a thing in North America. We don't spend the money.

I sort of agree; but again the generalization is a problem.

It implies that this is a universal issue in North America, when Canada and the U.S. between them only have 5 cities with significant conventional subway/metro operations.

(New York, Toronto, Montreal, Washington DC and Chicago ) Smaller/Different systems exist in L.A, SF, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Philly and Boston among other places. (yes I know I'm omitting a few)

I would argue that among those above, Montreal has done a fairly good job with its system with the important asterisk that its also the physically newest among the major systems.

But Toronto would be second, believe it or not.

Further, the generalization about Europe is certainly an issue, as someone who has used the subways in Paris; while some stations are absolutely sublime, some could be mistaken in both appearance and scent for being part of the sewer more than the subway.

Berlin also has some pretty rough looking stations too.

I can't really speak to Asia as I'm not well traveled there.

When your metro system is actually the #1 single most important and critical piece of transportation infrastructure (like Tokyo)... you keep that thing in it's peak condition!

We can broadly agree on this. Though I've never been to Tokyo so can't speak at length about the condition of individual stations; though I am familiar with their system, at a high level.

We agree with this I just somehow get into arguments with people I agree with for silly reasons! I don't know how it happens...

Don't use expressions that imply fault, or foolishness on the part of others. Assume others may actually know what they're talking about; and actually care too.

If you happen to be fairly certain someone's take is wrong, double-check your facts, then politely put that case forward. "Are you sure about that, because Wikipedia says"

If you just don't understand someone's perspective, just respectfully ask them to explain their reasoning.

 

[max]

On Line 2, to this point, no station has had a comprehensive reno; though Victoria Park was very close

Dufferin & Pape both got significant work in the early 2010s, both having their main entrance buildings significantly expanded along with upgraded station finishes.

 

[felix123]

Dufferin & Pape both got significant work in the early 2010s, both having their main entrance buildings significantly expanded along with upgraded station finishes.

You're right. I still think it's nuts that Pape's Lipton Ave exit is all staircase all the time. Could've used some escalators.

 

[Northern Light]

Dufferin & Pape both got significant work in the early 2010s, both having their main entrance buildings significantly expanded along with upgraded station finishes.

True; and I should have included those; though, like Museum, they were done 'on the cheap'........err.......badly.