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Transit Fantasy Maps

TheTigerMaster said:
I don't know if it has been discussed yet, but connecting Line 4 to Lakeshore RER is a brilliant idea. It would essentially turn Line 4 into an extension of the RER network spanning the north of Toronto.

Broadly speaking, westbound Lakeshore RER commuters would transfer at Port Union and then use Line 4 to access any destinations in Toronto roughly north of Eglinton. For example, a commuter from Durham travelling to Lawrence Station would use Line 4.

The ridership potential is high.

In this scenario, it would also make sense to extend Line 4 to at least Downsview Station, to let those RER commuters access the Spadina Line.

This would dramatically alter travel patterns in Durham Region and northern areas of Toronto. It would suddenly becomes viable for Durham residents to access areas like UTSC, Scarborough Town Centre, North York Center, York University, etc via transit.

This would also function as a "Union Station Relief Line". Metrolinx has been looking for ways to reduce crowding at Union Station, and this Line 4 extension could divert a meaningful amount of passenger crowding away from Union Station.
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I'm skeptical. Union and some sort of Line 4 connection serve different travel patterns. I'm not saying there isn't merit in your proposal, I'm saying that most GO commuters at Union are headed downtown, and this won't divert them.
TheTigerMaster said:
However, the Ontario Line would obviously have to be extended north to Sheppard prior to extending Line 4, otherwise we'd overcrowd the Yonge Line even further.
Click to expand...
How many people would really take the subway to downtown if they have GO? Especially without fare integration? It's slower, and probably more expensive. If they were getting off before Bloor-Yonge, that means some "held" capacity at B-Y.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
However, the Ontario Line would obviously have to be extended north to Sheppard prior to extending Line 4, otherwise we'd overcrowd the Yonge Line even further.
Click to expand...

DirectionNorth said:
How many people would really take the subway to downtown if they have GO? Especially without fare integration? It's slower, and probably more expensive. If they were getting off before Bloor-Yonge, that means some "held" capacity at B-Y.
Click to expand...
Not many. However commuters originating from somewhere along the Sheppard East corridor would take the subway to go downtown, which would overload the Yonge Line.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I don't know if it has been discussed yet, but connecting Line 4 to Lakeshore RER is a brilliant idea. It would essentially turn Line 4 into an extension of the RER network spanning the north of Toronto.

Broadly speaking, westbound Lakeshore RER commuters would transfer at Port Union and then use Line 4 to access any destinations in Toronto roughly north of Eglinton. For example, a commuter from Durham travelling to Lawrence Station would use Line 4.

The ridership potential is high.

In this scenario, it would also make sense to extend Line 4 to at least Downsview Station, to let those RER commuters access the Spadina Line.

This would dramatically alter travel patterns in Durham Region and northern areas of Toronto. It would suddenly becomes viable for Durham residents to access areas like UTSC, Scarborough Town Centre, North York Center, York University, etc via transit.

This would also function as a "Union Station Relief Line". Metrolinx has been looking for ways to reduce crowding at Union Station, and this Line 4 extension could divert a meaningful amount of passenger crowding away from Union Station.

However, the Ontario Line would obviously have to be extended north to Sheppard prior to extending Line 4, otherwise we'd overcrowd the Yonge Line even further.
Click to expand...

DirectionNorth said:
I'm skeptical. Union and some sort of Line 4 connection serve different travel patterns. I'm not saying there isn't merit in your proposal, I'm saying that most GO commuters at Union are headed downtown, and this won't divert them.
Click to expand...
That's a good point. Nearly all of Lakeshore East riders today are headed downtown, and a Line 4 extension wouldn't impact those riders.

However connecting Line 4 to Lakeshore East RER would still enable commuters from Durham Region access to the northern areas of Toronto, so I do still feel that there still exists significant opportunity for decent ridership on Line 4 once Lakeshore East gets RER and 15-minute service.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
However, the Ontario Line would obviously have to be extended north to Sheppard prior to extending Line 4, otherwise we'd overcrowd the Yonge Line even further.
Click to expand...

DirectionNorth said:
How many people would really take the subway to downtown if they have GO? Especially without fare integration? It's slower, and probably more expensive. If they were getting off before Bloor-Yonge, that means some "held" capacity at B-Y.
Click to expand...

TheTigerMaster said:
Not many. However commuters originating from somewhere along the Sheppard East corridor would take the subway to go downtown, which would overload the Yonge Line.
Click to expand...

micheal_can said:
Which is why before that extension is done, the one to Downsview is done first.
Click to expand...
I'm skeptical of the idea that a Line 4 extension to Downsview would tempt Sheppard East riders away from Yonge. It's a much slower and circuitous route to downtown than the Yonge Line. These riders will still use the Yonge Line, regardless of the effects on overcrowding.

But I don't see why we can't build both the Line 4 extension to Downsview, and the OL North extension to Sheppard. Both are elevated and would be relatively inexpensive.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I'm skeptical of the idea that a Line 4 extension to Downsview would tempt Sheppard East riders away from Yonge. It's a much slower and circuitous route to downtown than the Yonge Line. These riders will still use the Yonge Line, regardless of the effects on overcrowding.

But I don't see why we can't build both the Line 4 extension to Downsview, and the OL North extension to Sheppard. Both are elevated and would be relatively inexpensive.
Click to expand...
there's no real room for an elevated extension along Sheppard west to Downsview unless the line ran directly above the roadway for most of the route which would be pretty unpopular. The elevated structure would need to be about 12m wide and stations a minimum of 16m wide (from examples in Toronto, New York, and Vancouver) which the ROW can't really support unless again it is stacked directly on top of the road. I do fully support an underground alignment here, however. It'd be more expensive but the operational benefits probably justify the cost.
 
KhalilHeron said:
there's no real room for an elevated extension along Sheppard west to Downsview unless the line ran directly above the roadway for most of the route which would be pretty unpopular. The elevated structure would need to be about 12m wide and stations a minimum of 16m wide (from examples in Toronto, New York, and Vancouver) which the ROW can't really support unless again it is stacked directly on top of the road. I do fully support an underground alignment here, however. It'd be more expensive but the operational benefits probably justify the cost.
Click to expand...

That's correct. The 4-km section from Yonge to Sheppard West (Downsview) will be challenging, likely tunneled except for a new subway-only bridge over West Don near Bathurst.

West of Downsview, more options are available. The line probably can run elevated over the south side of Sheppard to at least Keele. Or, maybe swing to Wilson & Dufferin, running on surface next to the Wilson Yard.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I'm skeptical of the idea that a Line 4 extension to Downsview would tempt Sheppard East riders away from Yonge. It's a much slower and circuitous route to downtown than the Yonge Line. These riders will still use the Yonge Line, regardless of the effects on overcrowding.

But I don't see why we can't build both the Line 4 extension to Downsview, and the OL North extension to Sheppard. Both are elevated and would be relatively inexpensive.
Click to expand...
I think the biggest beneficiary of a western extension of line 4 to Downsview, would be the TTC from an operations point of view.
 
kamira51 said:
I think the biggest beneficiary of a western extension of line 4 to Downsview, would be the TTC from an operations point of view.
Click to expand...
I agree.
1) it will give people from the north another option to switch to the other side of Line 1.
2) If it is the same rolling stock, they can transfer cars this way as well. In fact, it makes the Wilson Yard even more accessible for the line.
 
KhalilHeron said:
So I went about making my own fantasy Sheppard East alignment, but went a bit overboard, and made 11...
Lemme know which you like best and what you'd change🤔
Also realized stations are only on the legend in the last on oops
Click to expand...
I think Sheppard East meeting line 2 at McCowan makes a lot of sense from an operational point of view. You have a large empty plot of land to build a new MSF at the CP rail yard (I think Metrolinx may already own part of the dis-used section of that yard), that would allow for greenwood to be downsized and make the obico yard less urgent. Building a new MSF here would be one the of the cheaper and least contentious locations as well.
 
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