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Transit Fantasy Maps

I am glad that Eglinton is getting greatly improved transit. But, frankly, this project jumped the queue due to a number of political events. It would not necessarily be #1 priority otherwise.

What political events caused Eglinton to jump the queue? I wasn't following transit back then, so I wasn't away of the queue jump.

TTC would have done very well if they included these 3 projects in Transit City Phase 1:

1) Kennedy Stn - Kingston Rd - Morningside LRT (aka Scarborough-Malvern)
2) Finch West LRT
3) DRL subway

A few nights ago I was made aware that the Scarbrough-Malvern Line would move 4,600 to 5,000 pphpd. To put it in perspective, Eglinton Line moves 5,400, while Sheppard East Line and Finch West Line both move about 3,000. The SMLRT really should have been prioritized over FWLRT.

Hopefully SMLRT will be built sooner than later; likely as an extension of ECLRT.
 
I like that the map shows the St. Clair LRT. That's the one people say is a streetcar and never advertised as an LRT. Just like the Spadina and Harbourfront LRT never existed.
TTC has frequently advertised various streetcar lines as LRT over the years. They explicitly chose to call the current Light Rail Vehicles (LRVs) as ALRVs and CLRVs.

By definition all streetcars are LRT, but not LRT are streetcars.

The same way all streetcars are transit but not all transit are streetcars.
 
And I guess the other conundrum with the terminology of LRT is what it stands for:

a) Light Rail Transit
b) Light Rapid Transit, or
c) 'light' Rapid Transit (which I oftentimes use when referring to a completely grade-separate/metro line using light rail / ICTS / Skytrain techonology
 
What political events caused Eglinton to jump the queue? I wasn't following transit back then, so I wasn't away of the queue jump.

Well, there was no formal "queue" to jump. I just wanted to say that Eglinton LRT, while a very useful line, did not have to be #1 priority.

The sequence of events that favored Eglinton:

1) Miller / Giambrone proposed the LRT plan that covers the whole city. Naturally, Eglinton was included as an important corridor, but it was only one of many proposed lines. Due to the physical constraints, the central section had to be tunneled.

2) By 2009, the cost of proposed LRT lines ballooned. Metrolinx had to defer some of them, but Eglinton survived due to its central position (only the western section was deferred).

3) Ford got elected in 2010, and tried to cancel all LRT. He did not want an Eglinton line. However, the provincial government and Metrolinx stood their ground, as cancelling Eglinton would cost too much. A compromise was found: Eglinton LRT will be built, but placed entirely underground.

That compromise meant that both sides started to support the central section of Eglinton as LRT. Metrolinx and the LRT proponents supported it because it is LRT, while Fordites supported it because it is underground. Hence the work on Eglinton line continued during the Ford's reign, while all other LRT lines got stalled.

As a result, Eglinton construction is progressing well, and it is likely to be the first of Transit City LRT lines that will enter service, despite being the most complex one.

A few nights ago I was made aware that the Scarbrough-Malvern Line would move 4,600 to 5,000 pphpd. To put it in perspective, Eglinton Line moves 5,400, while Sheppard East Line and Finch West Line both move about 3,000. The SMLRT really should have been prioritized over FWLRT.

Hopefully SMLRT will be built sooner than later; likely as an extension of ECLRT.

I think 4,600 pphpd is an exaggeration for the Scarborough-Malvern Line; it should be roughly in line with Finch and Sheppard at 3,000. 3,000 is still a decent ridership for LRT.

There would be a number of advantages of building that line in Phase 1. It does not seem to have any major technical difficulties. It should have been easy politically (no chance of a subway instead, and no hyper-sensitive stable neighborhoods that could start complaining). And, no matter what is selected as a replacement for SRT, having a functional alternative LRT route to Kennedy Stn would partly mitigate the construction pains. During the construction period, some riders would have found their way to SMLRT themselves, and some could be directed there by reorganizing the bus routes.

It still remains viable, even if not a part of Phase 1. Let's see if it gets back on the map.
 
And I guess the other conundrum with the terminology of LRT is what it stands for:

a) Light Rail Transit
b) Light Rapid Transit, or
c) 'light' Rapid Transit (which I oftentimes use when referring to a completely grade-separate/metro line using light rail / ICTS / Skytrain techonology
I can't say I've ever heard LRT refer to anything other than Light Rail Transit. Perhaps you are confusing it with VIA's LRC (Light, Rapid, Comfortable) trains.
 
What political events caused Eglinton to jump the queue? I wasn't following transit back then, so I wasn't away of the queue jump.

.

It's also the first time since streetcar lines was abandoned that York gets rapid transit! (the subway does run underneath York between Jane and the Humber River but there are no stops).

The Lambton loop (and perhaps Rogers?) did service York historically. In a fantasy map I would add LRT service along Dundas using the high bridge which was originally designed for the Lambton loop streetcar service for LRT access to the Junction, Humbertown and Islington village. There will also be significant growth along Dundas between the Humber and Royal York that is underserved by transit right now. If the Junction had good transit service it would really help this community
 
I can't say I've ever heard LRT refer to anything other than Light Rail Transit. Perhaps you are confusing it with VIA's LRC (Light, Rapid, Comfortable) trains.

Not confusing anything. Oftentimes when I hear people say LRT they tend to add in that it’s Light Rapid Transit. Or there will be confusion and a blurring between BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) and LRT (Light Rail Transit). In an official sense, I’ve heard it on the news from time to time. And even from Metrolinx: "The BCA, completed in late 2012, reviewed options such as a subway, grade-separated light rapid transit and on-surface light rapid transit options." http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...ion/benefitscases/benefits_case_analyses.aspx

Granted, in that sentence I highlighted from Metrolinx there was no usage of the acronym LRT. Which I’d say more falls under the third point I made earlier about the different definitions (i.e - ‘light’ Rapid Transit). But even beyond Metrolinx it’s often used. Plenary, part of the P3 for ION, says “Light Rapid Transitâ€: http://plenarygroup.com/the-americas/projects/waterloo-light-rapid-transit.html And the Canadian Encyclopaedia makes a note of “Light Rapid Transitâ€: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/subways-and-light-rapid-transit/
 
Well, there was no formal "queue" to jump. I just wanted to say that Eglinton LRT, while a very useful line, did not have to be #1 priority.

The sequence of events that favored Eglinton:

1) Miller / Giambrone proposed the LRT plan that covers the whole city. Naturally, Eglinton was included as an important corridor, but it was only one of many proposed lines. Due to the physical constraints, the central section had to be tunneled.

2) By 2009, the cost of proposed LRT lines ballooned. Metrolinx had to defer some of them, but Eglinton survived due to its central position (only the western section was deferred).

3) Ford got elected in 2010, and tried to cancel all LRT. He did not want an Eglinton line. However, the provincial government and Metrolinx stood their ground, as cancelling Eglinton would cost too much. A compromise was found: Eglinton LRT will be built, but placed entirely underground.

That compromise meant that both sides started to support the central section of Eglinton as LRT. Metrolinx and the LRT proponents supported it because it is LRT, while Fordites supported it because it is underground. Hence the work on Eglinton line continued during the Ford's reign, while all other LRT lines got stalled.

As a result, Eglinton construction is progressing well, and it is likely to be the first of Transit City LRT lines that will enter service, despite being the most complex one.

Nice analysis. I think I'd also add in that there's a collective memory of the Harris conservatives filling in the subway tunnels on Eglinton, and because it's a line that's been started before there's more will to not be seen as "burying it again". It's a kind of Eglinton manifest-destiny. It's also the only TC line that would cross through all 6 of the former Boroughs of Toronto.
 
Nice analysis. I think I'd also add in that there's a collective memory of the Harris conservatives filling in the subway tunnels on Eglinton, and because it's a line that's been started before there's more will to not be seen as "burying it again". It's a kind of Eglinton manifest-destiny. It's also the only TC line that would cross through all 6 of the former Boroughs of Toronto.

Agreed. Personally, here's what I think the rationales were (either stated or un-stated) for why the 4 Transit City projects that were chosen to be priorities were:

Eglinton: Like you mentioned, in addition to the false-start subway, it also crosses the entire city. It was referred to several times as the "centrepiece" of the plan.

Scarborough LRT: Fast-tracked due to the impending death of the SRT.

Finch West: One of the busiest bus routes in the city, certainly makes sense that it would be towards the top of the list. Also serves an area drastically under-served by RT.

Sheppard East: Moderately busy bus route, but I think it was chosen as a priority project to end the endless debate over the Sheppard Subway and whether or not it should be extended. Obviously, it had the exact opposite effect.
 
Not confusing anything. Oftentimes when I hear people say LRT they tend to add in that it’s Light Rapid Transit.
That's a new one on me. Do you have a URL?

Or are we just talking about people on a bus chatting. Where they seem to blur the different between a cat and a dog ...
 
That's a new one on me. Do you have a URL?

Or are we just talking about people on a bus chatting. Where they seem to blur the different between a cat and a dog ...

There’d be no URL. I thought it was quite clear I meant informally for those points. That’s why for the subsequent statements that I segued into I wrote “in an official senseâ€... To differentiate between the preceding points which were informal and non-citable, and the ensuing points which could be (and were) cited.
 
There’d be no URL. I thought it was quite clear I meant informally for those points.
Not sure what that means then. Informally, people tell me they are at the bus stop waiting for the 505, or that they'll take the bus today, but take a a streetcar.

I guess then informally, LRT might then stand for bus rapid transit! :)
 
Am I missing something? Is this trolling I’m dealing with, or are you genuinely interested in tedious monotony and silliness?

I’ve heard people say light rapid transit when referring to LRT. I’ve heard LRT used when referring to rapid transit that’s light, or light rapid transit. And I’ve seen Metrolinx, TTC, news articles etc refer to LRT as "light rapid transit". What more is there?
 
Agreed. Personally, here's what I think the rationales were (either stated or un-stated) for why the 4 Transit City projects that were chosen to be priorities were:

Eglinton: Like you mentioned, in addition to the false-start subway, it also crosses the entire city. It was referred to several times as the "centrepiece" of the plan.

Scarborough LRT: Fast-tracked due to the impending death of the SRT.

Finch West: One of the busiest bus routes in the city, certainly makes sense that it would be towards the top of the list. Also serves an area drastically under-served by RT.

Sheppard East: Moderately busy bus route, but I think it was chosen as a priority project to end the endless debate over the Sheppard Subway and whether or not it should be extended. Obviously, it had the exact opposite effect.

That about sums up my view on it. And while all those projects are fantastic additions, and make a helluva lot of sense. The real question is: what was going on with Phase 2 of Transit City? For the same costs of the the DMLRT, JLRT, WWLRT, and other smaller projects - we could’ve had a fairly decent DRL proposal. But we didn’t. And while Miller put up a fight for the loss of Phase 2 Prov funding, where was the fight for the necessary DRL? Or even the first leg of it?

Was Miller/Giambrone’s assumption that the DRL could use LRT, and that the JLRT and DMLRT were to be the first phases/branches that could be interlined with a future DRL? Or was it always understood that there was to be a transfer between heavy and light modes at Pape and Jane? If the former, I could understand the push for LRT on Jane and Don Mills – even if it seems a bit backwards to build those sections first.
 
I am disappointed still that WWLRT is perpetually left behind in the roundtable talks. If any LRT after Eglinton (And Scarborough due to SRT) should be prioritized, its that one. We are in the real danger of having South Etobicoke and the Humber Bay Shores develop as a car-oriented suburb with highrises due to the lack of public transit options.
 

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