Transit Fantasy Maps

[gweed123]

Why would they include a DRL they finally admitted they had to start studying in 2010, in a 2008 LRT plan?

Transit City wasn't just an LRT plan, it became the City's Transit Master Plan. The fact that it was all LRT lines doesn't change that.

The answer of course, is that the cost of the DRL would more than exceed all 6 of the surface LRT plans in the Transit City plan. And that with Transit City mostly finished or under construction by 2016, they could then turn their head to a very expensive line, which wasn't going to be affordable quickly.

TMPs frequently include projects that are medium or long-term projects. I can understand that the LRT lines were intended to be "quick wins", but there's no reason, aside from not caring about it, to exclude it from that plan. To say "well at least they started studying it in 2010" completely ignores the fact that the architects of Transit City completely ignored the DRL back in 2008.

 

[nfitz]

Transit City wasn't just an LRT plan, it became the City's Transit Master Plan. The fact that it was all LRT lines doesn't change that.

That then, it didn't include the Spadina line extension, suggests that it was just didn't include subway, and was just an LRT plan (and the later bus plan).

 

[gweed123]

That then, it didn't include the Spadina line extension, suggests that it was just didn't include subway, and was just an LRT plan (and the later bus plan).

Ummm, yes it did... http://torontoist.com/attachments/toronto_david/transitcity.gif

The Spadina Subway Extension is clearly shown in a thicker line weight, which indicates future projects.

 

[GenerationW]

The answer of course, is that the cost of the DRL would more than exceed all 6 of the surface LRT plans in the Transit City plan. And that with Transit City mostly finished or under construction by 2016, they could then turn their head to a very expensive line, which wasn't going to be affordable quickly.

Considering that the study area of the current Relief Line EA is limited to east of Spadina/University and south of Danforth, the cost of the DRL (phase one) would not exceed all of those LRT lines. And we're now devoting $5+ billion to Eglinton, so it's already been clearly established that something very, very expensive can actually be affordable very, very quickly.

 

[nfitz]

Ummm, yes it did... http://torontoist.com/attachments/toronto_david/transitcity.gif

The Spadina Subway Extension is clearly shown in a thicker line weight, which indicates future projects.

So the BD line is part of Transit City as well?

You using a figure that's years older than Giambrone's comments on the DRL to prove what exactly?

 

[nfitz]

The answer of course, is that the cost of the DRL would more than exceed all 6 of the surface LRT plans in the Transit City plan. And that with Transit City mostly finished or under construction by 2016, they could then turn their head to a very expensive line, which wasn't going to be affordable quickly.

Considering that the study area of the current Relief Line EA is limited to east of Spadina/University and south of Danforth, the cost of the DRL (phase one) would not exceed all of those LRT lines. And we're now devoting $5+ billion to Eglinton, so it's already been clearly established that something very, very expensive can actually be affordable very, very quickly.

I very clearly said "the cost of the DRL would more than exceed all 6 of the surface LRT plans in the Transit City plan".

Tell me how the 7.2 km surface sections of the Eglinton line will cost anywhere close to $5+ billion? In 2010 Metrolinx estimated that the 7.8 km of Eglinton from Jane to Renforth would only cost $467 million. At that price, the $3-$4 billion 7-km Phase 1 of the DRL will cost would have bought about 45 to 60 km of LRT. Transit City had about 110 km of surface LRT on the original 7 routes.

Though I don't know why you restrict yourself to the Phase 1 plan. The 6 km from University to Dundas West alone would cover the rest of the surface LRT.

 

[44 North]

http://torontoist.com/attachments/toronto_david/transitcity.gif

Oh man, that map is another reason why the TTC needs to retool its standard subway map – whether for everyday use, or during opportunities to present future routes such as this. That thing is abysmal. It looks like something I’d see on a junkmail flyer for a new restaurant.

.. At that price, the $3-$4 billion 7-km Phase 1 of the DRL will cost would have bought about 45 to 60 km of LRT. Transit City had about 110 km of surface LRT on the original 7 routes.

Though I don't know why you restrict yourself to the Phase 1 plan. The 6 km from University to Dundas West alone would cover the rest of the surface LRT.

Would the DRL cost more than all of TC? The 2012 DRTES completed DRL was to be $8.3bn. But the 2007 Transit City cost estimates was higher than that. Both for the whole thing, or the abridged Phase One portion we got in 2010.

But it’s hard to find any official info on TC anymore. And ditto for any info on late MoveOntario2020 or early Big Move plans. When looking at images for Metrolinx ’25-year plan’, it seems the DRL is to be completed, but only as the portion between Dundas West and Pape (i.e what later became DRTES’ Phase 1 + 3). I think even in the early part of this decade it was assumed there’d be no DRL north of Eglinton, and that the DMLRT was to connect the piece between Pape and Eglinton. If that’s what we’re talking about?

As well, from the TTC's DRTES page, it's noted that there's no DRL in the official plan, and that Metrolinx wants a "downtown core subway": https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Pr..._Line/DRTES_Commission_Presentation/index.jsp

The following is the content of this presentation:
Background

Growth, intensification expected in downtown

-no new downtown rapid transit lines in City’s Official Plan

Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan

-15 yrs - extend Yonge Subway to Richmond Hill
-25 yrs - “Downtown Core” subway

Yonge Subway at capacity south of Bloor

-improvements being made
-extension to Richmond Hill would significantly increase demand

 

[GenerationW]

Though I don't know why you restrict yourself to the Phase 1 plan.

Because the city is "restricting" itself to that at this very moment. In the absence of anything else, that's the best indication we have regarding what Miller & Giambrone might have done with the DRL.

 

[BurlOak]

So the BD line is part of Transit City as well?

You using a figure that's years older than Giambrone's comments on the DRL to prove what exactly?

I like that the map shows the St. Clair LRT. That's the one people say is a streetcar and never advertised as an LRT. Just like the Spadina and Harbourfront LRT never existed.

 

[nfitz]

Would the DRL cost more than all of TC? The 2012 DRTES completed DRL was to be $8.3bn. But the 2007 Transit City cost estimates was higher than that. Both for the whole thing, or the abridged Phase One portion we got in 2010.

I explicitly referred to the surface portion of TC, excluding the subway being built under Eglinton. You could have built the surface portion of TC for $8 billion. Each surface line was in the $1 billion range.

 

[gweed123]

So the BD line is part of Transit City as well?

No. What part of the Bloor-Danforth line is a thicker lineweight on that map? The only two thicker parts of 'existing lines' are the Spadina extension and the Scarborough LRT extension.

You using a figure that's years older than Giambrone's comments on the DRL to prove what exactly?

Because if the DRL was really such a priority than it should have been included on that map as well! Showing the Spadina Subway extension on that map as a 'future project' shows that it wasn't JUST an LRT plan. It was a transit plan. If Giambrone was really as big on the DRL as he professed to be in 2010, why was it not included in his transit plan in 2008? It's not like the need for the DRL suddenly materialized in 2010 out of nowhere. He was too busy planning LRT lines that would carry a couple thousand pphpd during peak into "Priority Neighbourhoods" that he was completely ignoring the real transit needs of Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

No. What part of the Bloor-Danforth line is a thicker lineweight on that map? The only two thicker parts of 'existing lines' are the Spadina extension and the Scarborough LRT extension.

And the St. Clair streetcar ...

So the thicker Yonge VIVA BRT line is part of Transit City?

 

[gweed123]

And the St. Clair streetcar ...

So the thicker Yonge VIVA BRT line is part of Transit City?

Thicker lines = future projects, thinner lines = existing infrastructure. And south of Steeles, yes, technically the North Yonge BRT was part of Transit City, as was the extension of the St. Clair Streetcar ROW to Jane.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Transit City wasn't just an LRT plan, it became the City's Transit Master Plan. The fact that it was all LRT lines doesn't change that.



TMPs frequently include projects that are medium or long-term projects. I can understand that the LRT lines were intended to be "quick wins", but there's no reason, aside from not caring about it, to exclude it from that plan. To say "well at least they started studying it in 2010" completely ignores the fact that the architects of Transit City completely ignored the DRL back in 2008.

Transit City didn't include

 

[Rainforest]

TTC would have done very well if they included these 3 projects in Transit City Phase 1:

1) Kennedy Stn - Kingston Rd - Morningside LRT (aka Scarborough-Malvern)
2) Finch West LRT
3) DRL subway

We would have the first two up and running by now, and DRL would be under construction.

All other LRT lines could be assigned to Phase 2. They are either politically controversial (Eglinton, Sheppard, and SRT replacement) or technically challenging (Don Mills, Jane, and Waterfront West LRT).

I am glad that Eglinton is getting greatly improved transit. But, frankly, this project jumped the queue due to a number of political events. It would not necessarily be #1 priority otherwise.