Transit Fantasy Maps

[Rainforest]

Also I don't like the McCowan Road alignment for the BD. The subway can go in the RT corridor.

The McCowan alignment has its advantages, too: station at the hospital, and releasing space for GO in the Stouffville corridor. If a station at Eglinton and Brimley is added, that's another plus; it will easily surpass the usage of SRT' Ellesmere and Midland stations.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Museum-St George and King-Union curves are functional, but TTC hates them and would not build anything similar these days. Such tight curves are not good for wheels and tracks, and are too noisy for riders. That applies to standard size subways, but a mini metro might be able to handle tighter curves.

On your map, there are at least 4 (maybe, even 6) rather tight curves on the Sheppard line.

For a one-seat ride across the north of the city, converting the existing Sheppard subway to some kind of high-floor mini metro might actually be the best bet if that technology is cheaper to extend. If it is extended as subway, it will probably never go east of STC because of the construction costs. In the west end, the probability of going past Downsview depends on the construction costs, too.

I used to be in favor of a subway / LRT combo solution; extending the subway to Agincourt and building LRT east of that point. I personally do not mind transfers, but it appears to be a big issue for many people. If so, maybe we should think how to eliminate that transfer. But if the subway is extended, my concern is that it will never go past STC due to the cost. On the other hand, converting the existing subway to low-floor LRT is costly, and is guaranteed to anger many existing riders. Therefore, I am trying to think outside the box, although not sure if the mini metro option is viable in this case.

You can cut down before Kennedy and turn before Markham to minimize sharpness.

The McCowan alignment has its advantages, too: station at the hospital, and releasing space for GO in the Stouffville corridor. If a station at Eglinton and Brimley is added, that's another plus; it will easily surpass the usage of SRT' Ellesmere and Midland stations.

I never though about that. Personally I was hoping a new administration would at least extend Eglinton to Bellamy or Kingston Rd, but that works. I just want all of Eglinton covered, too.

 

[andrewpmk]

The Museum-St George and King-Union curves are functional, but TTC hates them and would not build anything similar these days. Such tight curves are not good for wheels and tracks, and are too noisy for riders. That applies to standard size subways, but a mini metro might be able to handle tighter curves.

I guess by "mini-metro", you mean ICTS (as the Neptis report advocated) or some more modern technology that is similar. I hope that you would still have platforms roughly the length of what the Sheppard subway currently has (4 cars). Even a "mini-metro" like that can still carry huge volumes of people with automation (probably around 20000/hour), way more than a LRT line or even the 401, as long as you have Sheppard subway-length platforms. This is the technology that ought to have been used on Eglinton except for Miller's stubborn insistence on using LRT where it makes no sense. Only the Downtown Relief Line needs higher capacity; I think we ought to build 8 or 10 car platforms for that line, something which is overkill everywhere else.

 

[ksun]

Or imagine if you only wait 5 minutes 80% of the time but 10% of the time have to wait 15 minutes and 10% you wait 20-30 minutes. That's unreliable, you can't depend on it to get to work on time. This is the reality of many of our bus routes in the suburbs.

Not just the suburbs, downtown as well, the 501/506 in particular. I encountered quite a few times where there was a waiting of more than 15 minutes. One time was 28 minutes. I used my smartphone and told an old lady that she probably should walk down the street and take another route.
Such service is unacceptable.

Most people hate waiting outside in the cold. We could have better shelters possibly with heated areas like VIVA to fix this. There are ways we can improve people's lives much sooner than spending 10-15 years building a subway.

these and coupled with fewer stops (the really tight spaced one) would give riders a lot more confidence. On Christmas day, I took the 501 and it took 1/3 of the time it normally does to get from Yonge to Spadina because it stopped only twice as opposed to 8 times on a normal day for that distance of 1400 meters.

 

[Rainforest]

I guess by "mini-metro", you mean ICTS (as the Neptis report advocated) or some more modern technology that is similar. I hope that you would still have platforms roughly the length of what the Sheppard subway currently has (4 cars). Even a "mini-metro" like that can still carry huge volumes of people with automation (probably around 20000/hour), way more than a LRT line or even the 401, as long as you have Sheppard subway-length platforms.

Well, yes and no. Indeed, I would look at Sheppard platform lengths (90-100m), and automated operation. However, I would avoid ICTS linear induction motors, go with standard rotary motors instead.

This is the technology that ought to have been used on Eglinton except for Miller's stubborn insistence on using LRT where it makes no sense.

Actually, this is debatable. Eglinton, by itself, is a lower density corridor than Sheppard (or Sheppard - Finch). Eglinton's local demand can be easily handled by LRT, in which case we are still saving some money on the eastern segment, as well as on the future extension west of Mt Dennis.

Another matter is the potential impact of transfers on the Eglinton demand. If the TTC expansion stalls after Eglinton, and large numbers of riders from the intersecting bus routes have to use Eglinton to get to Yonge or Spadina subways, then LRT might have problems handling the combined demand. Such risk exists, but with the investments already made in the LRT technology on Eglinton, it may be better to mitigate by building other lines rather than reopening the technology debate.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Actually, this is debatable. Eglinton, by itself, is a lower density corridor than Sheppard (or Sheppard - Finch). Eglinton's local demand can be easily handled by LRT, in which case we are still saving some money on the eastern segment, as well as on the future extension west of Mt Dennis.

Another matter is the potential impact of transfers on the Eglinton demand. If the TTC expansion stalls after Eglinton, and large numbers of riders from the intersecting bus routes have to use Eglinton to get to Yonge or Spadina subways, then LRT might have problems handling the combined demand. Such risk exists, but with the investments already made in the LRT technology on Eglinton, it may be better to mitigate by building other lines rather than reopening the technology debate.

Thing is I can already see the bus routes to eglinton increasing ridership because of the new option there, rather then going all the way to bloor. And I am assume the Eglinton West exsention will be open in 2030, the western Routes like Royal York Will increase in ridership as well. The density is not immediate but the bus transfer is what will put in high ridership territory.

 

[BurlOak]

Actually, this is debatable. Eglinton, by itself, is a lower density corridor than Sheppard (or Sheppard - Finch). Eglinton's local demand can be easily handled by LRT, in which case we are still saving some money on the eastern segment, as well as on the future extension west of Mt Dennis.

Another matter is the potential impact of transfers on the Eglinton demand. If the TTC expansion stalls after Eglinton, and large numbers of riders from the intersecting bus routes have to use Eglinton to get to Yonge or Spadina subways, then LRT might have problems handling the combined demand. Such risk exists, but with the investments already made in the LRT technology on Eglinton, it may be better to mitigate by building other lines rather than reopening the technology debate.

• 3 years ago Ford and McGuinty agreed on the underground LRT because the Province said that the vehicles had already been ordered and the cost to cancel the order and switch to another vehicle were cost prohibitive.
• Now, the Province says that there is a cost to the cancellation (but it has not been quantified), but it is small enough that the LRT order can be partially cancelled and the subway extension built.
• In another year or two, I imagine the cancellation fees would completely disappear and Bombardier would actually be paying us to change the order.

 

[andrewpmk]

Thing is I can already see the bus routes to eglinton increasing ridership because of the new option there, rather then going all the way to bloor. And I am assume the Eglinton West exsention will be open in 2030, the western Routes like Royal York Will increase in ridership as well. The density is not immediate but the bus transfer is what will put in high ridership territory.

That and the huge amount of employment near Pearson Airport.

Travelling on 401 between 410 and 404 can easily take 60-90 minutes each way westbound in the morning and eastbound in the afternoon. People working near Pearson Airport will want to avoid that. This could easily overload light rail.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm not at all convinced that LRT won't be able to handle the demands of Eglinton West. Consider that the Eglinton LRT, including underground, is expected to move only 5,000 pphpd. The practical limit for LRT is 20,000 (grade separated) and 10,000 for ROW. Chances are that the Eglinton West extension will be fully grade separated by utilizing the Richview Corridor. Even if Eglinton West were to match the usage of the rest of the ECLRT line (it won't), there would still be room for four times more passengers. And even if it didn't use Richview, it would still have room to carry twice as much passengers.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm not at all convinced that LRT won't be able to handle the demands of Eglinton West. Consider that the Eglinton LRT, including underground, is expected to move only 5,000 pphpd. The practical limit for LRT is 20,000 (grade separated) and 10,000 for ROW. Chances are that the Eglinton West extension will be fully grade separated by utilizing the Richview Corridor. Even if Eglinton West were to match the usage of the rest of the ECLRT line (it won't), there would still be room for four times more passengers. And even if it didn't use Richview, it would still have room to carry twice as much passengers.

I'm not sure. I can easily see Kipling for example increasing because people won't have to endure the ride from where ever in rexdale-the elms to Kipling subway station. Now Eglinton East after Kennedy GO (Kennedy Road to Morningside Road.) is debateable, I would want the transfer to be kept in tact at Kennedy otherwise I would want to switch to the subway. Eglinton East and Kingston Road may not have the density like the other parts of Toronto but the ridership from the far east part of Scarborough would be way higher if there was no transfer at Kennedy Road, which would justify the subway. I also would like to think a singular long subway with no transfers from the airport (Terminal 1) all the way to University of Toronto, Scarborough would not be empty in the Etobicoke and Scarborough parts.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That and the huge amount of employment near Pearson Airport.

Travelling on 401 between 410 and 404 can easily take 60-90 minutes each way westbound in the morning and eastbound in the afternoon. People working near Pearson Airport will want to avoid that. This could easily overload light rail.

Agreed. I think the Liberals are screwing up big time by not building the western extension right now. I guess we are just waiting for the airport express to fail.

 

[andrewpmk]

I'm not at all convinced that LRT won't be able to handle the demands of Eglinton West. Consider that the Eglinton LRT, including underground, is expected to move only 5,000 pphpd. The practical limit for LRT is 20,000 (grade separated) and 10,000 for ROW. Chances are that the Eglinton West extension will be fully grade separated by utilizing the Richview Corridor. Even if Eglinton West were to match the usage of the rest of the ECLRT line (it won't), there would still be room for four times more passengers. And even if it didn't use Richview, it would still have room to carry twice as much passengers.

The current plans call for at grade light rail, which is a bad idea considering the wide right of way of the cancelled Richview Expressway. Considering that the Mississauga Transitway is grade separated, and obviously should be converted into an extension of the Eglinton line, not making the Richview portion of the Eglinton line grade separated is foolish. The traffic on the 401 is dreadful, and connecting Pearson Airport, Airport Corporate Centre and Square One to the Eglinton line would put something like 100000 jobs within walking distance of the Eglinton line, not to mention many more accessible from buses from what is currently Skymark Hub and Square One.

Keep in mind that "ridership projections" are extremely inaccurate.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

As of now there are no solid plans for a westward extension. IMO, the only reason Eglinton West uses ROW is because of Miller's insistance of ROW LRT absolutely everywhere. Prior to the TC days the Eglinton RT was always planned as some sort of grade separation through the Richview Corridor.I'd be very surprised if we don't go back to grade separated configuration.

I feel that the most likely grade separated setup for this will have the LRT in a trench. I can't imagine that being much more expensive than rebuilding the roadway for a ROW.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Network 2011 Had Eglinton as a subway to Eglinton west Station.

Can some get a picture of the entire richview corridor? I can't find a good one on google images. It's north of Eglinton correct?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Agreed. I think the Liberals are screwing up big time by not building the western extension right now. I guess we are just waiting for the airport express to fail.

There's only so much money to go around. I'm somewhat confident that this western portion will be built by Toronto if Stintz or more probably Chow is elected mayor in 2014. From what Ive read, both campaigns will have a huge focus on huge transit expansion.