Transit Fantasy Maps

[ehlow]

One thing I'd like to add is: I believe that what people really want is a better level of service, meaning more frequent & reliable, which in this city is often associated with subways, but other vehicles can be frequent & reliable as well.

Imagine if the bus or streetcar came reliably every 5 minutes, it would be a huge improvement to people's lives. Many times people can wait > 20 minutes for a vehicle, and every minute spent waiting for the vehicle is psychologically much worse than a minute spent in the vehicle (the LED next-bus signs help with this of course). Or imagine if you only wait 5 minutes 80% of the time but 10% of the time have to wait 15 minutes and 10% you wait 20-30 minutes. That's unreliable, you can't depend on it to get to work on time. This is the reality of many of our bus routes in the suburbs.

Most people hate waiting outside in the cold. We could have better shelters possibly with heated areas like VIVA to fix this. There are ways we can improve people's lives much sooner than spending 10-15 years building a subway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Nah, riders at Dixon can easily commute to Eglinton by bus. If anything, I suspect an Eglinton route would attract more ridership from feeder routes than a Dixon route would.

Eglinton West should be elevated though. An at-grade ROW like in Scarborough would be slower and commuters might prefer to bus down passed Eglinton towards the faster Bloor instead.

I agree with you, however in addition to the size of the house, it's also the number of people in each house, for example many big houses in the Annex for example are broken into apartments, and the amount of space between each house (the lot size). Also, the feeder bus routes. I mean, many parts of Bloor-Danforth are filled with low-rise housing, but the ridership is quite good (>10x the Sheppard subway, 509,000 trips a day).

I prefer our transit lines generally follow the grid-pattern of our streets, that way it's easy to understand and navigate. Also there are also apartment buildings along Eglinton West, although not as many as Dixon.

I would prefer Dixon be served by some future Lawrence-Dixon line, to me that's more natural, since Lawrence becomes Dixon basically in the west. This could be BRT or LRT or ALRT or even just better bus service.

I hear you guys, but looking at google maps, I just see way more people are Dixon Road and more density. Could help revitalise the area as well. Eglinton West does not have those problems at all But maybe Wisla you are correct, and these people would just rather the bus to Eglinton West.

Sheppard (along the whole length of it, from Allen to Markham Road) has a very large number of new condominiums along it, probably one of the largest concentrations outside downtown. You definitely do not see this along Bloor-Danforth except near Yonge and around the Bloor/Kipling area.

I think that the low ridership on the Sheppard subway is entirely caused by its short length. It is difficult to find a very short subway line anywhere in the world that is significantly busier than the Sheppard subway, even lines like the Waterloo & City line in London or 3bis/7bis in Paris which go through much denser areas. Bloor & Yonge is not a very large employment area compared to the much larger employment areas around Union Station, and employment there has grown so little recently that the rather low employment growth at Sheppard & Yonge is higher. Both Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard depend heavily on people transferring from the Yonge line for ridership.

Fair enough, but the people it still ends at the mall. There is the rocket, which is not nearly as busy. But look at this Andrew

This is a new idea I just put together. I have sheppard going down to STC, but turning north and going to Steeles. I also have the Bloor Line going to Malvern Town Centre and Cenntenial College. I brought Eglinton East to UTSC.

Reason why I have changed the order of the subway is that I believe this serves all of scarborough effectively. I think Turning Sheppard north on McCowan Would bring great ridership to the subway. Ending at steeles helps a busy bus routes. Bloor helps serve some very underserved areas. And brings rapid transit to Northest Scarborough. I brought Eglinton East to UTSC. There would be no transfer at Kennedy which would would guarantee high ridership. I have a transfer at STC because I think that would help bring people there.

Thoughts.

 

[Johnny Au]

The unpredictability of bus and streetcar arrivals cause people to have less trust in the public transit system, especially those who do not have smartphones (with a transit app).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

...

Here we go again

 

[BurlOak]

I hear you guys, but looking at google maps, I just see way more people are Dixon Road and more density. Could help revitalise the area as well. Eglinton West does not have those problems at all But maybe Wisla you are correct, and these people would just rather the bus to Eglinton West.



Fair enough, but the people it still ends at the mall. There is the rocket, which is not nearly as busy. But look at this Andrew
View attachment 21192

This is a new idea I just put together. I have sheppard going down to STC, but turning north and going to Steeles. I also have the Bloor Line going to Malvern Town Centre and Cenntenial College. I brought Eglinton East to UTSC.

Reason why I have changed the order of the subway is that I believe this serves all of scarborough effectively. I think Turning Sheppard north on McCowan Would bring great ridership to the subway. Ending at steeles helps a busy bus routes. Bloor helps serve some very underserved areas. And brings rapid transit to Northest Scarborough. I brought Eglinton East to UTSC. There would be no transfer at Kennedy which would would guarantee high ridership. I have a transfer at STC because I think that would help bring people there.

Thoughts.

For this, I would think that having the purple continue east to Malvern and the B-D continue north to Steeles would be a better option. It seems odd that Sheppard dips down south and immediately turns back north again.

If we can get GO to co-operate, then I would have frequent service on the Markham GO line, and that is too close to the McCowan portion of the line. The big problem is that we do not have a clear indication of how the GO lines can help rapid transit in Toronto. For all the advertising that Metrolinx does, I still have no idea what they are planning and when it will be implemented.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

For this, I would think that having the purple continue east to Malvern and the B-D continue north to Steeles would be a better option. It seems odd that Sheppard dips down south and immediately turns back north again.

If we can get GO to co-operate, then I would have frequent service on the Markham GO line, and that is too close to the McCowan portion of the line. The big problem is that we do not have a clear indication of how the GO lines can help rapid transit in Toronto. For all the advertising that Metrolinx does, I still have no idea what they are planning and when it will be implemented.

Very astute. I think until hourly service gets implemeted on GO transit we won't know if eastern Scarborough acutally needs this.

Minor Change. This is what you were describing BurlOak?

 

[andrewpmk]

At least this ought to increase ridership on the Sheppard subway substantially. There is so little development along the parts of Sheppard not covered by this version of the Sheppard subway that the #85 bus ought to handle the remaining Sheppard demand perfectly well.

I somehow doubt the BD extension is needed though. It is too close to the Stouffville GO line, and south of Ellesmere there is hardly any new development. I suppose there is a fair amount of development around Finch/McCowan though, but it seems strange building subways to both the CN and CP rail yards in the GTA.

 

[Rainforest]

Very astute. I think until hourly service gets implemeted on GO transit we won't know if eastern Scarborough acutally needs this.

Minor Change. This is what you were describing BurlOak?

View attachment 21193

This version is definitely more practical than the first. Maybe, taking BD to Steels is going too far; getting to Sheppard or at most to Finch may be enough. Relief of the Steeles East and Finch East routes can be more effective with the DRL - Don Mills subway line, as it will intercept Finch and Steeles where the buses are actually full.

As for the Sheppard line, extending it to Malvern makes sense; but I am not sure if it should be a full-fledged subway, or some kind of a high-floor mini-metro, which can use the existing subway tunnel but is capable of making sharper turns. The latter may be cheaper if a long line is envisioned.

 

[Rainforest]

Imagine if the bus or streetcar came reliably every 5 minutes, it would be a huge improvement to people's lives. Many times people can wait > 20 minutes for a vehicle, and every minute spent waiting for the vehicle is psychologically much worse than a minute spent in the vehicle (the LED next-bus signs help with this of course). Or imagine if you only wait 5 minutes 80% of the time but 10% of the time have to wait 15 minutes and 10% you wait 20-30 minutes. That's unreliable, you can't depend on it to get to work on time. This is the reality of many of our bus routes in the suburbs.

It appears that such reliability can be only achieved with protected right-of-ways; not necessarily subways but also LRT or BRT.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This version is definitely more practical than the first. Maybe, taking BD to Steels is going too far; getting to Sheppard or at most to Finch may be enough. Relief of the Steeles East and Finch East routes can be more effective with the DRL - Don Mills subway line, as it will intercept Finch and Steeles where the buses are actually full.

As for the Sheppard line, extending it to Malvern makes sense; but I am not sure if it should be a full-fledged subway, or some kind of a high-floor mini-metro, which can use the existing subway tunnel but is capable of making sharper turns. The latter may be cheaper if a long line is envisioned.

You think Steeles ridership drops off after McCowan or probably Kennedy eh? Maybe so. I think Finch would be fair. Sheppard? Here's what I think? Why not used the RT cars/Sky train. People would hardly know the difference and it would be easier to extend or bring above ground. It's not LRT either for the whiners. Win Win. Also I don't like the McCowan Road alignment for the BD. The subway can go in the RT corridor. I also think Eglinton can either be LRT or Subway, but the transfer at Kennedy has to go.

 

[Hopkins123]

Very astute. I think until hourly service gets implemeted on GO transit we won't know if eastern Scarborough acutally needs this.

Minor Change. This is what you were describing BurlOak?

View attachment 21193

This is more or less like what I posted a few weeks back:


Glad to see others are thinking along the same lines.

This version is definitely more practical than the first. Maybe, taking BD to Steels is going too far; getting to Sheppard or at most to Finch may be enough. Relief of the Steeles East and Finch East routes can be more effective with the DRL - Don Mills subway line, as it will intercept Finch and Steeles where the buses are actually full.

This is what I envisioned with my plan. If not all the way to Steeles, then there's a strong case for letting the subway intercept the Finch corridor, with Woodside Square and condominiums a destination in their own right that'll justify such an extension. You could even build it further to the high-density cluster at Alton Towers (500 metres south of Steeles). This would involve short-turning some 53 Steeles East bus trips at McCowan but a worthwhile detour.

As for the Sheppard line, extending it to Malvern makes sense; but I am not sure if it should be a full-fledged subway, or some kind of a high-floor mini-metro, which can use the existing subway tunnel but is capable of making sharper turns. The latter may be cheaper if a long line is envisioned

As per my map, the sharpest curve occurs in Malvern when turning onto Neilson but there are tighter curves already functional in the system (Museum-St George and King-Union). And the cost of a grade-separated line through Scarborough to Morningside Heights will be expensive no matter which technology is chosen. If the Sheppard extension is largely elevated, then I don't see why not continuing it as a subway to provide a one-seat ride right across the city.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is more or less like what I posted a few weeks back:


Glad to see others are thinking along the same lines.



This is what I envisioned with my plan. If not all the way to Steeles, then there's a strong case for letting the subway intercept the Finch corridor, with Woodside Square and condominiums a destination in their own right that'll justify such an extension. You could even build it further to the high-density cluster at Alton Towers (500 metres south of Steeles). This would involve short-turning some 53 Steeles East bus trips at McCowan but a worthwhile detour.



As per my map, the sharpest curve occurs in Malvern when turning onto Neilson but there are tighter curves already functional in the system (Museum-St George and King-Union). And the cost of a grade-separated line through Scarborough to Morningside Heights will be expensive no matter which technology is chosen. If the Sheppard extension is largely elevated, then I don't see why not continuing it as a subway to provide a one-seat ride right across the city.

An above ground subway would cost most less. But where would be be brought above grade?

 

[Hopkins123]

An above ground subway would cost most less. But where would be be brought above grade?

The transition would occur east of Kennedy, elevated adjacent the Stoufville then connect to the SRT corridor and follow the same elevated alignment through to Morningide Hts. Only a minor segment between Milner and Washburn would be tunneled.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The transition would occur east of Kennedy, elevated adjacent the Stoufville then connect to the SRT corridor and follow the same elevated alignment through to Morningide Hts. Only a minor segment between Milner and Washburn would be tunneled.

Sound perfect. I'll take it. If I lived in Scarborough I would take the deal and run.

 

[Rainforest]

As per my map, the sharpest curve occurs in Malvern when turning onto Neilson but there are tighter curves already functional in the system (Museum-St George and King-Union). And the cost of a grade-separated line through Scarborough to Morningside Heights will be expensive no matter which technology is chosen. If the Sheppard extension is largely elevated, then I don't see why not continuing it as a subway to provide a one-seat ride right across the city.

The Museum-St George and King-Union curves are functional, but TTC hates them and would not build anything similar these days. Such tight curves are not good for wheels and tracks, and are too noisy for riders. That applies to standard size subways, but a mini metro might be able to handle tighter curves.

On your map, there are at least 4 (maybe, even 6) rather tight curves on the Sheppard line.

For a one-seat ride across the north of the city, converting the existing Sheppard subway to some kind of high-floor mini metro might actually be the best bet if that technology is cheaper to extend. If it is extended as subway, it will probably never go east of STC because of the construction costs. In the west end, the probability of going past Downsview depends on the construction costs, too.

I used to be in favor of a subway / LRT combo solution; extending the subway to Agincourt and building LRT east of that point. I personally do not mind transfers, but it appears to be a big issue for many people. If so, maybe we should think how to eliminate that transfer. But if the subway is extended, my concern is that it will never go past STC due to the cost. On the other hand, converting the existing subway to low-floor LRT is costly, and is guaranteed to anger many existing riders. Therefore, I am trying to think outside the box, although not sure if the mini metro option is viable in this case.