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Transit Fantasy Maps

Do you think that a DRL extension north of Eglinton to Lawrence is at all justified?

Lawrence is one of the bigger ridership bus routes and it would reduce traffic on the YUS even if only marginally so, and the community, condos and retail at Don Mills and Lawrence is booming. Plus it leaves future precedent for extending it further to Sheppard+Finch.
 
Do you think that a DRL extension north of Eglinton to Lawrence is at all justified?

Lawrence is one of the bigger ridership bus routes and it would reduce traffic on the YUS even if only marginally so, and the community, condos and retail at Don Mills and Lawrence is booming. Plus it leaves future precedent for extending it further to Sheppard+Finch.

Definitely, Lawrence is packed during rush hour.
 
The lawrence bus doesn't even run to Yonge street.. Look at a map, the Bridle Path cuts Lawrence in half. Lawrence ends as a major road at Leslie, continues as a residential road dipping into a valley until almost at Bayview, and ends. It then restarts with a full interchange with Bayview, and runs to yonge. You cannot drive from Don mills to Yonge on Lawrence, and thus the bus does not run there. The Lawrence East bus has no affect whatsoever on the Yonge line. edit: nevermind, I'm an idiot. it just connects at Eglinton.
 
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Good that you mentioned it though, because the 54 bus dips south to Eglinton and reduces wait time for buses on Eglinton on the way to Yonge, which is a good thing. A DRL station at Lawrence however, would be the new terminus of the 54 bus.

Maybe there would still be sufficient demand for riders to continue the trip to the YUS line?

edit: We also keep forgetting about the Eglinton Crosstown lol.
 
I'm not, 54 will terminate at Laird in 2020. the riders still go to Yonge though.
56 Leaside should be rerouted to go on Kilgour Road (to serve CAMH, Toronto Rehab, and Bloorview) to Bayview before terminating at Sunnybrook. It would provide a more convenient route to go to Sunnybrook from the Danforth (as well as those from Leaside, Thorncliffe Park, and Old East York).
 
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I was also thinking about how the DRL could potentially work within the rail corridor. What I think would be cool to build an elevated structure over the rail corridor, but have it covered, somewhat like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Sapporo_subway_shelter.jpg), but only a bit more glass to make it more open. I would suspect that any elevated line along that corridor would draw the eyre of neighbours because of noise, but if the line is covered like that and properly sound proofed, that should mitigate the vast majority of it. Not to mention during the winter not having to worry about freezing switches or really cold open air stations.

You showed the DRL and B-D meeting at Vic Park. I did a quick sketch with 500m radius curves to go from the Main Station to Vic Park. I would say the only way to fit this in would be to expropriate a number of houses from the NW corner of Vic Park and Danforth - OR support the elevated structure on their rooftops. I do not think you would even be allowed to go under the houses and if you could at a great depth, then there would be no way to get back to the elevation of the Vic Park Station.

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Looking at it a bit closer, I would suggest that the easiest thing would be to locate a new DRL station immediately south of the exisitng station. That way the entire existing B-D could remain open during construction.

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I thought it would be nice if Vic Park could be changed to have 2 centre platform stations. One would have the Westbound DRL and the Westbound terminus of the B-D. The Other would have the Eastbound DRL and the Eastbound terminus of the B-D. (Sort of a modified version of the stacked tunnels at Lionel Groulx). Different lines would have to cross with this and I do not know if the elevations could work out without significant changes. Also, the construction staging for this would be much more complex.
 

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regardless you are still skipping 45% of your ridership. again, it isn't worth saving a couple hundred million to bypass 45% of your ridership. To refute that 45% of ridership isn't a large portion of the ridership is silly. That's the difference between a full train and one with seats to spare. you essentialy argued against yourself there by saying your version of the DRL would only be 65% effective as my version of the DRL all to save a stupid transfer that people couldn't care less if it existed or not.

By that logic, why not put the DRL down Parliament and connect at Castle Frank? After all, it's even further west than Pape, and could capture a significantly higher percentage of B-D riders.

It's also worth noting that the only station between Victoria Park and Pape that is over 20K per day is Main Street, which would have a DRL stop as well. 2nd most is Coxwell at 16K, which is where I suggest the other station go. The other stations are a combined 33K. That's half of what Kennedy alone handles. I would also venture to say that many of those riders are arriving via buses. There's nothing to say that those bus routes can't be modified to run to either Main Street, Coxwell, or Gerrard Square Stations, depending on which is closer.

By routing all of the subway traffic from Scarborough onto a line already destined for downtown, you also save money on not having to design a massive interchange station in order to move people from one line to another. You eliminate the possibility of creating another choke point on the system. Plus by building the DMLRT instead, you get an RT line that goes much further north than a subway likely ever will in our lifetime. That extra utility IMO outweighs a few transfers for eastern Danforthers that aren't made any more convenient (I don't want to say inconvenient, because the reality is, at worst, their trip pattern will remain identical to what it is today).

I thought it would be nice if Vic Park could be changed to have 2 centre platform stations. One would have the Westbound DRL and the Westbound terminus of the B-D. The Other would have the Eastbound DRL and the Eastbound terminus of the B-D. (Sort of a modified version of the stacked tunnels at Lionel Groulx). Different lines would have to cross with this and I do not know if the elevations could work out without significant changes. Also, the construction staging for this would be much more complex.

Very good analysis, thanks! And yes, I would prefer to see a 3 track, 2 platform solution at Victoria Park as well. If that requires a new station, so be it. It's not like Pape or Donlands wouldn't need to undergo significant renovations in order to accommodate the DRL under pretty much any other scenario as well.
 
Most Kennedy users are SRT riders, they get double counted. (at both their entry station on the RT, and at Kennedy)

The reason you don't use parliament is you limit future expansion prospects, as well as the fact that the replacement value of the King streetcar diminishes. (yet another reason not to use the rail corridor) People forget that the DRL will not only relieve Bloor-Yonge, but it will also relieve the overloaded streetcar network, which wouldn't be possible with a Parliament alignment. Pape / Donlands is the "magic point" where it relieves both Bloor-Yonge, and functions as a streetcar replacement. It also provides a chance for even further relief with an eventual extension to Eglinton, which would remove large portions of bus traffic being routed to the Yonge line. As I said, the idea you present is a novel one that is interesting, but when you look deeper it just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Very good analysis, thanks! And yes, I would prefer to see a 3 track, 2 platform solution at Victoria Park as well. If that requires a new station, so be it. It's not like Pape or Donlands wouldn't need to undergo significant renovations in order to accommodate the DRL under pretty much any other scenario as well.

I was torn between a 3 track - 2 platform solution, or a 4 track - 2 platform solution where the B-D line would continue east one stop to maybe Birchmount/Danforth.

The former would have the two directions of the B-D join together west of Vic Park and have a single track in between the two directions of the DRL (DRL being the STC to Kennedy to Queen line). There would be a single tail track to the East of Vic Park between the two DRL tracks.
The latter would have the two directions of the B-D stay separate. The eastound track would cross (grade-separated) the WB track of the DRL and share a platform with the EB DRL. The westbound track would stay to the north and share a platform with the WB DRL. These two tracks would have to then cross (grade-separated) the DRL tracks and somehow head off towards Birchmount/Danforth. I would think that Vic Park may operate better not being a terminal station.

For both, the B-D line would have to be shifted a bit north during construction to allow this to be built. The main problem is how to get from the Rail Corridor up to the Subway Corridor. I redrew it with 400m radius and it still seems that an entire city block has to be razed to fit it in.

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I hope you are not proposing that Toronto use it's rail corridors for a rail line? If so then you should be soooooooo ashamed. Using existing infrastructure for infrastructure is so non-world class. That kind of idea is for wanna-be cities and they don't respect or understand "great city building". To be a great city you have to tunnel everywhere lest you ruin the those world class urban ambience of Walmart, gas stations, and fast food joints lining Toronto's bohemian suburban wonderland.
 
Using a rail corridor for transit is sometimes a bad idea because it misses all the major destinations along a route. It's better to pay $1 Billion to build a subway underground, where people will use it, rather than spending $400 Million to build it where only a fraction of the potential riders would use it. We have to use extreme discretion when deciding to build in a rail corridor or not.
 
This is what I have been saying for ages.

Toronto is damn and determined to spend monstrous amounts of money on little stubs that won't make a hoot of difference in anyone's commute. While I understand what you are saying about using rail corridors as they often don't go to large population and employment centres, in Toronto's case it is necessary. Torontonians transit users have a longer commute than most cities of similar size due to the way it is laid out.

Toronto is built on a grid system and therefore getting from A to B requires going to C. The city doesn't have one street that is diagonal which makes trips much faster and more direct. This is the benefit of the GO rail system for example the Pearson route. If it followed a standard TTC route it would have to go straight west to via High Park and ten make a sharp north turn to head to Pearson..........a much longer and time consuming option.

The problem with the rail corridors in Toronto is that GO got their greasy hands on them and GO is strictly interested in service for the 905. GO doesn't acknowledge it's responsibilities to Torontonians themselves and has hence made the rail lines available to GO service only and the citizens who's city it runs thru be damned.

Toronto should force the issue and demand that they get equal use of the lines and use Flexity LRT trains to use the corridors at all times of the day and if GO refuses then Toronto should demand 10 minute service on all GO trips in the city with no extra fares meaning the TTC pass would be good for all GO trains in the city. If GO refuses then Toronto should play hardball and create "unexpected" construction along the corridors as soon as they enter the city and bring 905 GO service to a screeching halt.
 

I really like this map. Some things I would change though (money less of an issue), would be to make both spadina and waterfront as subways. Also, extend spadina further north probably; as well as extend waterfront further east to go through the portlands (which will see big development in the near future) and up through the beaches (can end at danforth/drl).
 

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