Transit Fantasy Maps

[TheTigerMaster]

As was suggested, here is the same image as a JPEG instead of a PDF. It ends up being a larger file, but hopefully it'll be more easy to scroll.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43869799/GTA System Map - To Scale.jpg

This is certainly a great map. It is certainly allot to take in. I would have made the DRL terminate further westbound, perhaps at Dundas West, Jane or High Park. I believe the TTC said that a DRL running via Parkdale would have to lowest ridership of the other proposed alignments but I may be mistaken.

Also I really feel that the Sheppard BRT should be hooked up to Sheppard East LRT station instead of being interlined with the Finch BRT.

Also I'm not to sure about how viable a Jane BRT would be. The street really narrows as you get closer to Bloor. With an LRT we would have the flexibility of tunnelling on the narrower parts of the street.

 

[gweed123]

This is certainly a great map. It is certainly allot to take in. I would have made the DRL terminate further westbound, perhaps at Dundas West, Jane or High Park. I believe the TTC said that a DRL running via Parkdale would have to lowest ridership of the other proposed alignments but I may be mistaken.

It was definitely a lot of work, haha, but I wanted to put all my ideas in one spot. But thank you!

The reason I chose Dufferin is because it's by far the busiest N-S route in the west end. By running it there up to Bloor, it takes a really busy bus line out of service in favour of a subway. The 2nd reason why I chose there is because it creates a massive new transit terminal at Queen and Dufferin, with 5 GO REX lines, a regular GO line, a subway, the Lake Shore West (and eventually Queensway) LRT, and the Queen streetcar. From this one spot you can get from almost anywhere to almost anywhere with just 1 transfer.

Also, it's a shorter tunnel route than using Roncesvalles, Parkside, or Jane. No matter where it goes it's going to be an expensive tunnelling option, so shaving a few KMs off will make the price tag a bit easier to swallow.

Also I really feel that the Sheppard BRT should be hooked up to Sheppard East LRT station instead of being interlined with the Finch BRT.

You have me a bit confused here. Do you mean the Sheppard BRT should connect with the Scarborough LRT at Sheppard & Markham? That would make sense as well, but I really wanted STC to be THE hub, so having all lines funnel into there makes sense. It also provides riders from Durham the option of either connecting at STC, Agincourt, or Victoria Park, depending on their destination.

Of course, there is nothing to say that the current Sheppard East bus route can't be kept. I just don't think Sheppard East east of McCowan really warrants rapid transit.

Also I'm not to sure about how viable a Jane BRT would be. The street really narrows as you get closer to Bloor. With an LRT we would have the flexibility of tunnelling on the narrower parts of the street.

The reason I put it as a BRT is because it's much more flexible in terms of operation. I also put it in as BRT Light, which is queue jump lanes, signal priority, and peak period buses only lanes. Only on the sections further north, where the ROW is wide enough, would it be dedicated shoulder lanes the entire time.

The way I see it working, at least south of Eglinton, is using peak period dedicated lanes. To see something similar, look at Montreal Rd through Vanier in Ottawa. A muuuch cheaper solution that tunnelling, and it will have much the same effect (limited stops + partially dedicated lanes = a significantly faster service). I also suspect that most of the bus traffic will be transferring at Mt. Dennis instead (either to GO REX or ESLRT), so the ridership south of there won't really be that high, certainly not high enough to warrant a tunnel.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You have me a bit confused here. Do you mean the Sheppard BRT should connect with the Scarborough LRT at Sheppard & Markham? That would make sense as well, but I really wanted STC to be THE hub, so having all lines funnel into there makes sense. It also provides riders from Durham the option of either connecting at STC, Agincourt, or Victoria Park, depending on their destination.

I was trying to say that the Shepard BRT should continue eastbound past McCowan to meet Sheppard East LRT Station on the L2 line and then terminate there. Right now a passenger wanting to go east from Sheppard East LRT Station (L2 Line) would have to go south to Scarborough Centre station to get on the Sheppard BRT. Hope this clarifies.

The reason I put it as a BRT is because it's much more flexible in terms of operation. I also put it in as BRT Light, which is queue jump lanes, signal priority, and peak period buses only lanes. Only on the sections further north, where the ROW is wide enough, would it be dedicated shoulder lanes the entire time.

The way I see it working, at least south of Eglinton, is using peak period dedicated lanes. To see something similar, look at Montreal Rd through Vanier in Ottawa. A muuuch cheaper solution that tunnelling, and it will have much the same effect (limited stops + partially dedicated lanes = a significantly faster service). I also suspect that most of the bus traffic will be transferring at Mt. Dennis instead (either to GO REX or ESLRT), so the ridership south of there won't really be that high, certainly not high enough to warrant a tunnel.

We agree here. I certainly would never build a underground LRT at Jane.

The reason I chose Dufferin is because it's by far the busiest N-S route in the west end. By running it there up to Bloor, it takes a really busy bus line out of service in favour of a subway. The 2nd reason why I chose there is because it creates a massive new transit terminal at Queen and Dufferin, with 5 GO REX lines, a regular GO line, a subway, the Lake Shore West (and eventually Queensway) LRT, and the Queen streetcar. From this one spot you can get from almost anywhere to almost anywhere with just 1 transfer.

Another proposal I've seen on UT that will have a similar effect is having the DRL connect to Roncesvalles Station and go northward to Dundas West. At Roncesvalles you could transfer to the Lakeshore LRT (L4) or two GO lines. At Dundas West you could transfer to the E42 or E4 GO lines. This would generate more DRL ridership than going to Dufferin. Plus there is allot more room at Roncesvalles for the absolutely massive station that would need to be built there. I would not consider DRL funding to be an issue. Everyone agrees that it needs to be built. The funding will come one way or another and the line will be operational in less than 15 years from now.

And again, great job on the map. I wish I had a few billion lying around to build it

 

[gweed123]

I was trying to say that the Shepard BRT should continue eastbound past McCowan to meet Sheppard East LRT Station on the L2 line and then terminate there. Right now a passenger wanting to go east from Sheppard East LRT Station (L2 Line) would have to go south to Scarborough Centre station to get on the Sheppard BRT. Hope this clarifies.

Gotcha. So you're suggesting that the Durham BRT end at STC and not continue as part of the Sheppard BRT? I suppose I could also branch the Sheppard BRT service and have 1 branch continue on, and the other veer south at McCowan to serve STC and become the Durham BRT. Personally, I'm more inclined to do the latter, because I think that having the main BRT in the eastern GTA be 1 continuous line serving 2 subway stations is preferable. I'll make that change and let you know how it looks!

We agree here. I certainly would never build a underground LRT at Jane.

Nope, the only new tunnel N-S north of Bloor and west of Spadina should be a long-term DRL extension.

Another proposal I've seen on UT that will have a similar effect is having the DRL connect to Roncesvalles Station and go northward to Dundas West. At Roncesvalles you could transfer to the Lakeshore LRT (L4) or two GO lines. At Dundas West you could transfer to the E42 or E4 GO lines. This would generate more DRL ridership than going to Dufferin. Plus there is allot more room at Roncesvalles for the absolutely massive station that would need to be built there. I would not consider DRL funding to be an issue. Everyone agrees that it needs to be built. The funding will come one way or another and the line will be operational in less than 15 years from now.

There certainly are very few bad options when it comes to the DRL, and we both have very good options in mind.

When it comes to Dufferin vs Roncesvalles though, the transfers you mentioned (to the Lakeshore and Brampton-Markham GO REXs) would apply to Dufferin as well, just at different locations. The transfer points would be at Parkdale and Exhibition Stations, instead of Dundas West and Roncesvalles. Six one half-dozen or the other.

Another reason I really like Dufferin is that Liberty Village is booming right now, and will continue to boom (and further overload the King Streetcar) for a while to come. A Dufferin West Yonge extension would put 3 subway stations within walking distance of Liberty Village.

As for land for the station, I'm thinking that the same type of thing could be applied there as would be applied with the new Union Subway station in this plan. Basically, the station would be dug underneath the rail corridor, at least for part of the station box. This would create a very vertical station, with the GO REX directly on top of the streetcar loop (which would be built to accommodate the L6 terminating there but a loop at the same level for passengers continuing east via the Queen Streetcar), and then below that the subway platform. It would certainly be a complicated station, but it could be done.

And again, great job on the map. I wish I had a few billion lying around to build it

Thank you, haha. Yes, I wish I had a few billion and a time machine to see what it would look like. But by the time that all of this is actually built, I'll probably be retired, haha.

 

[44 North]

Hey Gweed, I can't see either of them. The jpg one won't display, then says it's broken. The pdf one freezes.

 

[M II A II R II K]

That's a nice S-Bahn system there, and plus with more integratable park and ride and system transfer options, which is also a Toronto fantasy in and of itself could boost it's ridership.

 

[gweed123]

Hey Gweed, I can't see either of them. The jpg one won't display, then says it's broken. The pdf one freezes.

I shrunk the JPG down a bit, hopefully it'll load easier, although the quality may not be as good:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43869799/GTA System Map - To Scale_small.jpg

Let me know if it still doesn't work.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Gweed, I think you forgot to add Summerhill station to the map.

 

[gweed123]

Gweed, I think you forgot to add Summerhill station to the map.

Shit! Dupont too. What happened is I have a layer specifically for stations that get 'upgraded' to a transfer station later on, and I hide those when I turn the Phase 2 and 3 layers on. I had those stations in the 'Hide for Phase 2' layer instead of the 'Hide for Phase 3' layer. They're supposed to be upgraded to larger bubbles and text when the Crosstown GO REX gets put in in Phase 3.

I fixed it, and when I make some of the suggested changes on here, they'll appear with them in the next release. Thank you for pointing it out!

 

[diminutive]

I'm not certain where you are getting this notion of "quite low ridership" from. Between Don Mills Road and Broadview Station, 100 Flemingdon Park buses are almost always standing room only, even with very frequent service, in the morning and evening rushes.

Well, I was just working off of the TTC's DRL study. Flemingdon was by far the lowest ridership station anywhere along the DRL between Eglinton and Dundas West with about 500 boardings in the AM period, roughly a third of the next smallest stations. And allowing the DRL to go diagonally to Don Mills-Eglinton should save money since you wouldn't have to tunnel along Overlea and Don Mills. The few hundred inconvenienced riders could be accommodated by circulator buses between Thorncliffe and Don Mills Stations.

I don't know why the notion of the DRL as a regional service persists among some at Urban Toronto. Metrolinx can use that terminology as much as it wants, but a rapid transit service with one of its potential terminals in the heart of downtown and its other at Don Mills and Eglinton, effectively midtown these days, is not regional. It's municipal. The DRL, if it is ever built, will largely serve bonafide Torontonians, not people from the Regions, who commute to and from the inner suburbs of the City of Toronto and points downtown.

Well, obviously the DRL could serve any number of markets depending on the exact service implemented. My point was that 'regional' and 'municipal' needn't necessarily be so dichotomous. The Yonge line for instance obviously serves both a regional and local demand. It comes down to station spacing.

A regional-DRL could easily maintain 'urban' station spacing in denser parts of the City (e.g. 800m station spacing) while spreading out to more suburban spacing on the extremities (3-4km station spacing). Up to about 40km out of Union Station that would still be time competitive with GO, especially given higher service frequencies while providing appropriate local service.


Conceptually, 'regional' and 'local' rail need not be distinct categories. In some cases, like Paris, a distinct RER network was needed because the existing metro network was both low capacity and slow due to extremely frequent station spacing. Even then though, the RER obviously serves local demand as well as regional. The whole North American concept of regional/commuter rail and subways as distinct technical categories is totally bizarre.

 

[gweed123]

Well, I was just working off of the TTC's DRL study. Flemingdon was by far the lowest ridership station anywhere along the DRL between Eglinton and Dundas West with about 500 boardings in the AM period, roughly a third of the next smallest stations. And allowing the DRL to go diagonally to Don Mills-Eglinton should save money since you wouldn't have to tunnel along Overlea and Don Mills. The few hundred inconvenienced riders could be accommodated by circulator buses between Thorncliffe and Don Mills Stations.

For that matter, why bother having the DRL have to cross the Don at all? Run it up Parliament to Castle Frank, and then have it descend into the Don Valley and follow the rail corridor until it gets near Overlea & Millwood, then tunnel under Overlea and then veer north to Don Mills & Eglinton.

Riverdale is already well served by a plethora of streetcar lines, and the opportunities for intensification are minimal at this point. Parliament, especially south of Cabbagetown, is anything but. That wall of condos is going to continue to push eastward. And north of Bloor/Danforth, the only stop along the usual DRL route is Cosburn. That's quite a lot of extra KMs of tunnel, and a massive bridge over the Don Valley, for 1 station.

If you're going for cost efficiency, a shorter route via Parliament and then the Don Valley itself is the best option.

 

[nfitz]

For that matter, why bother having the DRL have to cross the Don at all? Run it up Parliament to Castle Frank, and then have it descend into the Don Valley and follow the rail corridor until it gets near Overlea & Millwood, then tunnel under Overlea and then veer north to Don Mills & Eglinton.

Riverdale is already well served by a plethora of streetcar lines, and the opportunities for intensification are minimal at this point. Parliament, especially south of Cabbagetown, is anything but. That wall of condos is going to continue to push eastward. And north of Bloor/Danforth, the only stop along the usual DRL route is Cosburn. That's quite a lot of extra KMs of tunnel, and a massive bridge over the Don Valley, for 1 station.

If you're going for cost efficiency, a shorter route via Parliament and then the Don Valley itself is the best option.

There's many things that don't work with this idea.

First, there's no extra kms ... your route is as long, if not longer. Second it's only 2 stops from Yonge, and the trip time savings that are needed to get people to change to the DRL are lost. Third - I don't understand why you say there are no intensification opportunties are minimal ... what about all those construction sites along Carlaw? Why can't you have more intensification up Pape? Fourth, where do you put the interchange station with the Lakeshore line?

 

[leopetr]

For that matter, why bother having the DRL have to cross the Don at all? Run it up Parliament to Castle Frank

Castle Frank is not a destination. It can never be a destination. It's surrounded by deep valleys, a huge cemetery, and some rich people mansions. Having it as terminus would be as hated as Kennedy.

and then have it descend into the Don Valley and follow the rail corridor

How are you getting down into the Don Valley? A gigantic viaduct that will make the abandoned CP Don Branch bridge look like a children's toy?

Going by Google Earth, you need to get down from an elevation of 376' to an elevation of 260'. How long a bridge is that going to be at a grade acceptable for subway trains (4 degrees)?

116 feet / sin(4) * sin(90) = 1662 feet or 506 metres

That's a lot of money that you are spending in order to not serve any riders at all.

The following people will hate your plan:
- Regulars at the Evergreen Brickworks
- Drivers on Rosedale Valley Road
- Drivers on Bayview
- Cyclists on the Don Valley Trail
- Cyclists on the Park Drive Reservation Trail
- Cyclists on the Beltline Trail

Riverdale is already well served by a plethora of streetcar lines, and the opportunities for intensification are minimal at this point.

Danforth and Pape or Danforth and Donlands have a lot of opportunities for intensification. One station north at Cosburn would serve the wall of 1970s towers there that is ripe for redevelopment. O'Connor has a lot of potential for intensification.

Parliament, especially south of Cabbagetown, is anything but. That wall of condos is going to continue to push eastward.

Parliament north of Cabbagetown is a historic district (or three). It can't be redeveloped. South of Cabbagetown, it's served perfectly well by a horizontal DRL.

And north of Bloor/Danforth, the only stop along the usual DRL route is Cosburn. That's quite a lot of extra KMs of tunnel, and a massive bridge over the Don Valley, for 1 station.

1. Not a massive bridge. Don Valley is tiny between Gerard and Queen. The more south you are, the easier Don Valley is to cross.

2. If you want more stops, put in more stops. Instead of Cosburn, do Mortimer and O'Connor. The station locations in the DRTES were for illustration purposes only, not binding.

If you're going for cost efficiency, a shorter route via Parliament and then the Don Valley itself is the best option.

A route that puts chickens in no one's pot, goes nowhere, and requires titanic geo-engineering to extend north of Bloor-Danforth (if not to get to Bloor-Danforth, given that pesky Rosedale Valley just south of Castle Frank).

Edit: Here's an illustration.

 

[gweed123]

There's many things that don't work with this idea.

First, there's no extra kms ... your route is as long, if not longer.

DRL from Union to Science Centre, via Front and Pape (aka traditional alignment): 10.75kms, all of which is either tunnelled or a bridge.

DRL from Union to Science Centre, via Front, Parliament, and the Don Valley: 10.3kms, 3kms of which is surface through the Don Valley.

Second it's only 2 stops from Yonge, and the trip time savings that are needed to get people to change to the DRL are lost.

I don't really think so. As long as it's before Bloor-Yonge, does it really make that much of a difference where the transfer point is? If anything, a DRL interchange there will also allow people from Chester and Broadview to transfer onto the DRL without having to 'backtrack'.

The DRL isn't about time savings, it's about comfort and providing an alternative to being packed into a southbound Yonge train like a sardine. As long as the DRL is as fast or faster than the current setup, and less congested, it will be well used.

Third - I don't understand why you say there are no intensification opportunties are minimal ... what about all those construction sites along Carlaw? Why can't you have more intensification up Pape?

Most of which are mid-rise condos with single detached houses in behind them. Certainly not the parade of 40+ storey condos that has been pushing further and further east, and has now already reached Sherbourne. If the mid-rise in Riverdale was everywhere, and not just confined to directly adjacent to major arterials, then it may be equal. But until that happens, densification opportunities along the Parliament corridor far outweigh those in Riverdale.

And I don't think much more intensification is likely to happen, because that area, as well as Bloor West, have been quite resistant to densification. Despite the B-D subway being there for around 40 years, densification is few and far between. The built form along the corridor is nearly identical to what it was when the streetcar was running there, aside from a few pockets of redevelopment (Yorkville, Main St. area, Islington)

Fourth, where do you put the interchange station with the Lakeshore line?

In the West Don Lands area. DRL + GO REX + Portlands/Lake Shore East LRT interchange.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The stations in between Yonge and Pape could just include a St. Lawrence station, a Leslieville GO Interchange, and another GO interchange at Gerrard.