Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Second_in_pie]

I understand the VIVA BRT is going to cost on the order of $1.2B in addition to what they have already spent on queue-jump lanes/minor widenings. So it seems yes, we do need hundreds of millions to do that for BRT or LRT.

Might as well go LRT if the capital cost is in the same ballpark as you at least get operational/capacity efficiencies from much larger vehicles.

This, I think, is where we need to actually get some studies in. Something like a BRT on McCowan, it's needed to serve people, but will it ever end up having a high enough demand for LRT? LRT does cost a bit more than BRT, significant enough for an in-depth look at the route's functions and ridership. I understand Fresh Start's talk about BRT's capacities of up to 5k pphpd, but I think if we're forecasting for that high, why don't we go LRT? If we're going to need that many busses, why don't we just invest in LRT instead, so a couple years down the road we don't have to worry about the significant crowding that a 5k pphpd BRT route would experience.

I think that routes like Finch West, Jane, Islington and the current streetcar routes are perfect for LRT. They have high current demand, and something needs to be done to make the routes more efficient, and there's a lot more potential riders along the corridor that could be picked up. However, they neither have the regional significance nor the high ridership potential of a subway.

Also, isn't the Viva BRT $1.2 billion for over 30 km of BRT? Compare this to about the same cost for 14 km of LRT on Sheppard, and you might find that BRT is significantly less expensive. And for good reason; you don't have to worry about laying tracks (which takes ages,) and you don't have to worry about installing overhead wires.

I think the Viva BRT will do fine. The way it's being built, it'll be much more rapid a service than the Transit City LRTs, and will hold a real appeal to suburbanites looking for an alternative way to get around. Of course, time will tell. But I think the growing crowds at all times of day on Viva can paint a good picture of how popular it could be after it becomes an actual rapid transit service.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Scarborough Mirror: Nov 12, 2009
BY: MIKE ADLER


Sheppard LRT concerns will be heard: councillors

Scarborough councillors say they'll make certain the Toronto Transit Commission hears concerns of businesses along the Sheppard East Light-Rail Line.

Three years of construction begin next spring on Sheppard Avenue from Don Mills Station to Meadowvale Avenue, and some merchants question whether the $1-billion transit project is timed with them in mind.

The city must do all it can to avoid the types of disruptions seen in building the dedicated St. Clair Avenue streetcar line, Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area chairperson Mark Bozian told Community Council this week.

Ron Moeser, the only Scarborough councillor with a commission seat, said he would get the BIA a chance to address a TTC meeting directly.

Though LRT construction will affect Sheppard businesses and "we have to get the job done," the commission will want to listen and address as many concerns as possible, Moeser said.

The councillors passed a motion asking the TTC for quarterly project updates and for a steering committee that would warn residents and businesses about new phases in construction and take action to minimize effects.

"There will be pain, but it's a matter of ensuring the pain is minimal and ensuring the businesses along there survive," said Chin Lee, a councillor with part of the route in his Scarborough-Rouge River ward.

But Lee and others predicted the light-rail line will bring an economic boom afterwards and new development.

Planning for future intensification on part of Sheppard East is already underway. The city kicks off an "avenue" study for Sheppard between Pharmacy Avenue and Birchmount Road at 7 p.m. next Wednesday in GracePoint Baptist Church, 3143 Sheppard at Pharmacy.

The study, which governs possible streetscape improvements and where new mid-rise, mixed-use buildings might be located, is expected to be done by next summer.

Meanwhile, Scarborough-Agincourt Councillor Mike Del Grande said he doesn't "get the warm fuzzies" about the LRT, which he argued Scarborough received instead of the subway extension it deserved.

"We were presented with, 'Either you take it or we will bring it somewhere else, because you aren't getting a subway,'" Del Grande recalled, adding he believes local councillors should get involved in "micromanaging" construction details Del Grande said are too important to be left to the TTC.

"If one business goes bankrupt, it's on my head," he said. .

 

[kEiThZ]

"We were presented with, 'Either you take it or we will bring it somewhere else, because you aren't getting a subway,'" Del Grande recalled...

Miller and Giambrone's love for Scarborough shines through.


I am just praying they don't bankrupt the businesses along Sheppard with St. Clair type screw-ups. There's a lot of anxiety in that business community. Most of those stores are mom and pop operations that don't have huge margins to play with. Giving them a 200-300 dollar a month tax break won't do anything for them.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Any construction will cause headaches. What happens when a store has to do construction on their own premises, ask their own constructors to compensate them for loss of business?

 

[kEiThZ]

Any construction will cause headaches. What happens when a store has to do construction on their own premises, ask their own constructors to compensate them for loss of business?

You should go talk to the owners of the businesses. I have. They are worried and you can't write that off. These are mostly immigrant run businesses with very low profit margins. If the TTC screws up, many of them will go under and the whole project could screw up the area for years.

I am not saying the TTC is out to screw things up. Just that they really have to be careful.

 

[Second_in_pie]

And I think that the benefits a subway could bring are obvious. The business owner's worries are to be expected, but I think it's mixed in with a belief that it makes sense to just extend the subway.

And I'm quite confident that the TTC will somehow screw this up like St. Clair.

 

[kEiThZ]

For one if it was a subway, there would be no construction past Brimley really so that would save a lot of businesses on Sheppard East, the headache of going through a construction period. That's why there's some apprehension about the LRT.

 

[EnviroTO]

"We were presented with, 'Either you take it or we will bring it somewhere else, because you aren't getting a subway,'" Del Grande recalled...

Miller and Giambrone's love for Scarborough shines through.

It is a city wide policy. No subways for anyone.

 

[Dan416]

It is a city wide policy. No subways for anyone.

Except for Vaughan. And Richmond Hill. And the people living in large swaths that will be served by the DRL.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Except for Vaughan. And Richmond Hill. And the people living in large swaths that will be served by the DRL.

And those projects aren't at all being rammed down the city's throat...

...not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Dan416]

And those projects aren't at all being rammed down the city's throat...

...not that there's anything wrong with that.

Well when desperately needed projects are being rammed down the city's throat, isn't there something wrong with that? Doesn't it reflect a deeper issue with how the city is approaching transit? That's why we created SOS. We can't be afraid to dream big and support new lines and extending the ones we have otherwise the city will continue choking on traffic.

Years ago the residents of Toronto voted to start construction of the Yonge Subway. If only it were that easy today.

 

[nfitz]

That's why we created SOS.

I thought you created that hare-brained NIMBY scheme to sabotage transit in this city for another generation. Please keep the fantasy threads to appropriate threads.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I thought you created that hare-brained NIMBY scheme to sabotage transit in this city for another generation. Please keep the fantasy threads to appropriate threads.

Niftz, you know that's a total lie. Either start being at least partially constructive or stop trolling.

 

[nfitz]

Niftz, you know that's a total lie. Either start being at least partially constructive or stop trolling.

Trying to sabatoge transit projects in this city, to trade them for a pipe dream is being 100% unconstructive.

I read that Scarborough newspaper article that was posted here. In the same article that talked about a group trying to get a subway, it also discussed the lost of lanes for cars. It's NIMBYism pure and simple.

 

[Dan416]

Trying to sabatoge transit projects in this city, to trade them for a pipe dream is being 100% unconstructive.

I read that Scarborough newspaper article that was posted here. In the same article that talked about a group trying to get a subway, it also discussed the lost of lanes for cars. It's NIMBYism pure and simple.

I think you need to re-look up the definition of NIMBY.