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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

^^ I agree, and to be frank, the EA for the SELRT wasn't open to any debate. They (Miller and co.) decided what they wanted on Sheppard, and then influenced a bunch of studies and the EA to accept that LRT was the best case. Going to the EAs and debating your point would have gotten nowhere. In fact, I'm sure several people went to the Sheppard EAs and voiced their concern over weather LRT was better than continuing the subway on the Sheppard East corridor. Right now is as good a time as any to persuade Metrolinx or city councillors to oppose the LRT and encourage the subway be continued instead.
 
TTC defends sole-source contract

$400G deal balloons to $20M

By BRYN WEESE
Toronto Sun
Last Updated: 25th September 2009, 4:29am

A sole-source consulting contract awarded by the TTC and worth $400,000 two years ago has come under fire because it's now worth $20 million.

The contract dates back to 2007 when the TTC hired URS Canada Inc. to work through the Environmental Assessment process for the Sheppard East LRT Transit City line.

"URS did all sorts of work on the Sheppard subway, including work from Don Mills to the Scarborough Town Centre," said the TTC's Brad Ross. "So there's a company already well ahead of the game, they're good at what they do, their rates are reasonable, we need to get going on this, so we said, 'Sole-source it and let's get it done.' "

Then in March of this year, the TTC added design components to the URS contract, which increased the cost from $400,000 to about $900,000.

In April, TTC staff again asked the commission to amend the contract for an additional $4.4 million to expand URS's consulting work.

Yesterday, at the TTC meeting, commissioners again added $14.5 million worth of work to the sole-sourced contract.

The contract amendments, according to Gary Webster, TTC chief general manager, all included the option of extending the contract and the public transit authority's procurement rules were never broken.

But Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong said an agency of the city would never be allowed to award a sole-source consulting contract worth $20 million.

"This never would have passed muster. They did through the back door what could not and would not have been allowed through the front door," he said. "You can't run an operation like the Toronto Transit Commission and use these tricks to award sole-source contracts that start out at $400,000 and end up at $20 million."
 
In fact, I'm sure several people went to the Sheppard EAs and voiced their concern over weather LRT was better than continuing the subway on the Sheppard East corridor.
There's always a few ... no matter what the proposal is. But it's a good way to gauge support. I've seen some EAs where the public opposition was so clear and concerted that plans changed; we might yet see this on Eglinton with the Brentcliffe station. In York region, the opposition to one run-of-the-mill sewer projects was so dramatic and vocal that the Minister bumped it to an individiual EA. I don't recall much opposition at all on the Sheppard LRT EA ... or any of the EAs ...certainly nothing compared to what has happened on the Georgetown Class EA.

Right now is as good a time as any to persuade Metrolinx or city councillors to oppose the LRT and encourage the subway be continued instead.
Given there was little opposition at the time, it's hard to impagine that there would be widespread interest in opposing it now, especially given that the what is being done is quite similiar to what was proposed on Day 1 (unlike the forever morphing Don Mills LRT).
 
There was opposition from the Sheppard East BIA. That was largely bought off with a bribe (a tax holiday during construction). They have maintained the view though that a subway would be better.
 
There was opposition from the Sheppard East BIA. That was largely bought off with a bribe (a tax holiday during construction). They have maintained the view though that a subway would be better.

The chair of the BIA is president of a car dealership. Naturally, he'll be against any transit improvement. One of vice-chairs is also a president of another car dealership. And one of the directors is a manger for a tire store.

So many auto-oriented businesses on the BIA, what would you expect.
 
There's always a few ... no matter what the proposal is. But it's a good way to gauge support. I've seen some EAs where the public opposition was so clear and concerted that plans changed; we might yet see this on Eglinton with the Brentcliffe station. In York region, the opposition to one run-of-the-mill sewer projects was so dramatic and vocal that the Minister bumped it to an individiual EA. I don't recall much opposition at all on the Sheppard LRT EA ... or any of the EAs ...certainly nothing compared to what has happened on the Georgetown Class EA.

Given there was little opposition at the time, it's hard to impagine that there would be widespread interest in opposing it now, especially given that the what is being done is quite similiar to what was proposed on Day 1 (unlike the forever morphing Don Mills LRT).

I'd hardly call lack of vocal opposition tacit support. Transit City isn't exactly well-known or well-understood. I'm sure a lot of people have the same defeatist attitude that you and kettal do, that we should just build ANYTHING, no matter how insufficient it is.
 
The chair of the BIA is president of a car dealership. Naturally, he'll be against any transit improvement. One of vice-chairs is also a president of another car dealership. And one of the directors is a manger for a tire store.

So many auto-oriented businesses on the BIA, what would you expect.

And what about the many businesses that were rightly concerned, like my father who owns a print shop on Sheppard East?

Just because the President of the BIA happens to be the owner of a car dealership (and it's one of the larger businesses on Sheppard East) should not disqualify his/her opinion. The majority of small business owners in the BIA indicated that they'd prefer the subway be extended. The President of the BIA was simply expressing that opinion. The businesses are rightly concerned that since so much of their business depends on auto access, that the removal of left turn privileges for a large chunk of such a suburban street could kill their businesses. And they don't buy the argument that LRT would improve their business. It's Sheppard not St. Clair. They do however believe that a subway would clear up congestion on the street while potentially attracting more residential development that generates more walk-in business.
 
I'd hardly call lack of vocal opposition tacit support. Transit City isn't exactly well-known or well-understood. I'm sure a lot of people have the same defeatist attitude that you and kettal do, that we should just build ANYTHING, no matter how insufficient it is.

I'd like to know what your definition of insufficient is? Not for a moment do I expect the demand to exceed the capacity of LRT on this infrastructure. Even if it had a spur line to STC added on.
 
The subway sure didn't fix congestion at Sheppard & Bayview...
As someone who used to take the Sheppard bus through Bayview, let me assure you, it has dealt very well with the congestion!

Though back then, I used to live near Willowdale ... so perhaps not ... :(
 
I think one of the biggest unspoken conflicts here is between two distinct visions of pedestrian/transit-friendly development. The first is the linear form that predominates in Toronto and most of North America. Queen, Danforth, College and others are all long retail strips that stretch over several kilometres. The commercial and public uses exist only on the major street itself. Even half a block away, you enter a quiet residential neighbourhood. The other is the model of nodal or neighbourhood development. That entails a number of blocks on several connected streets that have commercial and public uses. Overall it is a much more compact area. This is far more dominant in Europe. The latter is particularly well suited to subway transit service, with routes connecting each node, not necessarily along one street or in a straight line. The entire commercial area is within an short walk of a station. I would argue that it's also more pedestrian oriented, as distances are generally shorter. The linear approach theoretically requires more frequent transit stops because there is less mass in any one location. That's part of the justification for the LRT approach to transit.

On a tangentially related note, I think one of the big problems with the planning that we do in Toronto is that everything is centred on arterials. It's understandable because of the Queen/College/Danforth streetcar suburb precedent, but especially when you stretch out over longer distances, it becomes impractical. I think the European model is a good one for pedestrian and transit friendly neighbourhoods. When you go there, you'll notice that in many cases, neighbourhoods turn their back on arterials. Kensington Market is a good Toronto example. The shopping and restaurants and public uses are, as often as not, on the connecting side streets, while the arterial roads themselves serve a more utilitarian function. Major roads make better neighbourhood boundaries than neighbourhood centres. People naturally don't want to have to cross wide streets. That's why so many of the successful pedestrian streets are narrow. That doesn't mean that you should get rid of all wide streets. It means that you should encourage (or at least not ban) commercial development on all your narrower streets. I think the neighbourhood unit planning approach that has been dominant in Toronto for many years is on to something. It's just that it has traditionally been centred on arterial road junctions rather than transit stops. Imagine if Don Mills was built around a rail or subway station rather than around the Don Mills/Lawrence intersection. Wide arterials could be the boundaries of the neighbourhood units, while rapid transit lines would run right to their heart. That's a recipe for high transit ridership and pedestrian friendly communities.
 
I'd like to know what your definition of insufficient is? Not for a moment do I expect the demand to exceed the capacity of LRT on this infrastructure. Even if it had a spur line to STC added on.

Of course it won't, because it offers a lousy service for anyone going more than a short distance. This is the most bizarre fallacy that has crept into planning in the Transit City era: that there is this mythical "demand" in a corridor that will ride regardless of what mode is in place. There's a reason that far more people ride the Bloor-Danforth subway line than ride any parallel bus or streetcar route. It's not because there's something magical about those two streets. It's that more people want to ride a faster and more reliable service, and they will go out of their way to do it. That's why so many people going from Queen and Woodbine to Queen and Yonge ride the bus up to the Danforth and take the subway.

A recent study in Vancouver found that twice as many people would ride the Evergreen line with Skytrain technology than would ride with LRT technology.
 
When I said "insufficient" I wasn't referring to the number of people riding the Sheppard East line. Clearly, if the same number people ride it when its LRT as right now when it's a bus, then that's not subway-level demand. That is obvious. You couldn't have subway amounts of people stuffed into buses.

Insufficient refers to the eff up that the Sheppard corridor will become if this plan comes to pass. There won't be any continuity along the length of it. Subways might not have to follow streets, but in a grid road system, I think it's important that the same mode of transport be used across its length. Toronto has proven unwilling to extend its subway lines unless forced to do so. Yonge and Spadina are only being extended due to York's pressuring. No such pressure exists at Kipling because Mississauga is quite content to do things on its own, despite the needs and wants of its own citizens. They'd rather build a suboptimal BRT to take you to Kipling (which was built almost 30 years ago) than bring the subway to them. And in Scarborough, you have the suboptimal SRT in existence which has stumpified the Danforth line for a long time as well. With the SRT living out its useful age span, its a perfect time to extend Danforth to STC.

I don't understand how Toronto believes subway lines that end at Kipling and Kennedy are sufficient. Has Toronto grown at all in the past few decades. Yes! Subway planning in this city defies all logic.

And then we have Sheppard, which will be bus on Sheppard West, subway on Sheppard East, and LRT on East Sheppard East. It's plain ridiculous and stupid and pisses on the investments of the past.
 
Of course it won't, because it offers a lousy service for anyone going more than a short distance. This is the most bizarre fallacy that has crept into planning in the Transit City era: that there is this mythical "demand" in a corridor that will ride regardless of what mode is in place. There's a reason that far more people ride the Bloor-Danforth subway line than ride any parallel bus or streetcar route. It's not because there's something magical about those two streets. It's that more people want to ride a faster and more reliable service, and they will go out of their way to do it. That's why so many people going from Queen and Woodbine to Queen and Yonge ride the bus up to the Danforth and take the subway.

A recent study in Vancouver found that twice as many people would ride the Evergreen line with Skytrain technology than would ride with LRT technology.

Bloor streetcar had an incredibly high ridership when it was still just a streetcar. Higher than Sheppard subway can even dream of.
 
On a tangentially related note, I think one of the big problems with the planning that we do in Toronto is that everything is centred on arterials. It's understandable because of the Queen/College/Danforth streetcar suburb precedent, but especially when you stretch out over longer distances, it becomes impractical. I think the European model is a good one for pedestrian and transit friendly neighbourhoods. When you go there, you'll notice that in many cases, neighbourhoods turn their back on arterials. Kensington Market is a good Toronto example. The shopping and restaurants and public uses are, as often as not, on the connecting side streets, while the arterial roads themselves serve a more utilitarian function. Major roads make better neighbourhood boundaries than neighbourhood centres. People naturally don't want to have to cross wide streets. That's why so many of the successful pedestrian streets are narrow. That doesn't mean that you should get rid of all wide streets. It means that you should encourage (or at least not ban) commercial development on all your narrower streets. I think the neighbourhood unit planning approach that has been dominant in Toronto for many years is on to something. It's just that it has traditionally been centred on arterial road junctions rather than transit stops. Imagine if Don Mills was built around a rail or subway station rather than around the Don Mills/Lawrence intersection. Wide arterials could be the boundaries of the neighbourhood units, while rapid transit lines would run right to their heart. That's a recipe for high transit ridership and pedestrian friendly communities.

Most attempts at this in Toronto have resulted in the business failing. Many houses in the Annex for example are former storefronts.
 

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