scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Ignore the fact? We might spend $3B intentionally bypassing it!
And this doesn't compare to a 2km subway extension to the corporate centre above Toronto.
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
Ignore the fact? We might spend $3B intentionally bypassing it!
And this doesn't compare to a 2km subway extension to the corporate centre above Toronto.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Oh my god, what is with this logic?! "We haven't gotten any transit improvements as of late, so let's just build whatever we want with no real study?" Honestly, these are the things that shoot all the TC advocate's credibility totally out of the water.
nfitz
Superstar
No real study? We've been studying that corridor for a quarter-century!
Perhaps the only mistake on the Sheppard East line, is that they don't terminate it at Markham Road and make everyone transfer to a bus, until there is enough demand east of their!
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
So if they have been studying this corridor for a quarter-century, how come it took forever for the City of Toronto to determine whether the LRT meets the subway east or west of Highway 404? This is just one of the many examples where Toronto does studies after studies after studies on the same damn thing and never answer all of the questions before them.
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Oh sorry, you're right. We did several studies, of which all but one said that Subway would be the best mode for Downsview-STC travel. This was even before the Lastman era, and before yet a surge of development at Agincourt, Bathurst, Bayview and STC that will continue to happen. Yes, before all that density and trip generators, they still said that subway was a better option than BRT, LRT and doing nothing.
The reason that Sheppard was not going to be built initially was because Harris took all the funding out of well.. almost everything! Lastman whined and whined to get a subway, and got it. It wasn't pretty, but the only political motivation that existed was to do it!
Now, David Miller comes along and is pushing for his LRT fantasy. It's no longer "let's built it," but "let's build it the way I want it." So that last and most recent 6 month study was made to rule out every mode except LRT.
nfitz
Superstar
I don't recall any of the previous studies condidering the LRT option; and none of the future demands predicted required subway. I asked before for someone to reference which study picked subway ... and I got no response; I assume there is no previous study which picked subway over LRT.
Dan416
Senior Member
The Metrolinx BCA didn't even look at extending Sheppard East to STC, but it looked at extending it west to Downsview. Doesn't that seem kinda, I dunno, ODD? Especially when you're looking at things like travel time and a continuous line being more beneficial to transit riders and the fact that subway bring more development than LRT.
Fresh Start
Banned
Of course it's propagandist deception. We're just cursed to have a bureaucracy that values its constituents so little. The priority of Transit City has never really been to help out the existing ridership base, just to secure jobs and future revenue streams for the minority. If assisting commuters was really the goal some improvements to the commuter-rail network; introduction of BRT along busy corridors like Finch, Wilson, Lawrence, Kingston, etc; and grade-separated ROW for light-rail would have been incorporated in these plans and not be so narrowed focused on duplicating the 501 car through suburbia. The numbers truly are skewed both in terms of cost and ridership projections. How many people will want to frequently ride a multibillion dollar tram when headways start to get wider due to bunching/stalling, lack of queue jumps and trips constantly interrupted by stops at red lights? I’m sure people will love that means of payment to board will be minimized too; such that if someone accidentally leaves their pass at home and are told they cannot pay by cash, they’re kicked off the service and will wind up (further) late for their appointments.
That Toronto is getting the short end of the stick today I surmise probably stems of years of anti-Toronto sentiment across Canada that has politicians scared to invest too much here now. The reason why York Region is getting two new subways stems from it not being within Toronto’s jurisdiction, otherwise I’m skeptical as to whether funding for that would’ve even gone through (after all it’s not like Hwys 7 & 400 is the next bustling Yonge & Dundas for Pete’s sake).
If TPTB really cared about the public, to save Toronto from decades of humiliation and spending even more money to correct all the ills that Transfer City will contribute further to this city’s existing congested cross-town commuting arteries- why not simply spend the roughly $10-13 billion instead on building an interlined Eglinton-DRL subway, and minor extensions to Bloor-Danforth and YUS to Steeles. If more funding becomes available (say by use of P3s, tolling highways, use of property taxes, etc.) then extend the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Ctr to complete the subway loop whereby one could continuously have a one-seat ride from Etobicoke Centre > upper downtown >Scarborough Ctr >NYCC. I’d think more people are inclined to transfer onto a subway line that passes nearby destinations people actually desire to go to rather than ‘rapid transit’ service to Milvan/Finch or Sheppard/Meadowvale.
nfitz
Superstar
Why would it study STC? It was studying the best way to link between Don Mills station and Finch West station; last time I checked STC wasn't between Don Mills and Finch West. It's not like building a subway all the way from STC to Downsview would suddenly generate more passengers on any new leg of subway that would exceed what LRT could easily handle.
Dan416
Senior Member
They could "study" whatever they wanted to study.
On the contrary, a subway WOULD attract more riders than LRT. Remind me if more or less people are riding the Sheppard Subway than when it opened? And remind me if King and Queen are the busiest they've ever been or not?
nfitz
Superstar
Yes it would ... that's what was predicted. But it still wouldn't hit 5-digit ridership, let alone justify subway.
Why do we keep going over this. Subway wasn't warranted, it wasn't recommended. Why is there any discussion?
T
Tdot_one
Guest
^ What's the point of having a LRT when a subway exist? It's not like a bus can't be used as a feeder service. It'd make a lot more sense to convert the Sheppard subway into an LRT. That'd allow for an uninterrupted trip to Yonge-Sheppard and Downsview station.
To be honest, Scarborough's CBD should've been located around Kennedy or even better, Warden station. There is plenty of land around these corridors and would've heavily minimized the overall carbon footprint.
To be honest, Scarborough's CBD should've been located around Kennedy or even better, Warden station. There is plenty of land around these corridors and would've heavily minimized the overall carbon footprint.
Dan416
Senior Member
The BCA stated a cost of $600 million to convert the Sheppard subway to LRT. You could build a couple new subway stations for that. It would be money down the drain to downgrade the line, and not something any politician would touch with a mile-long pole.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
^^ Not to mention that a subway from Downsview to STC would give a one seat ride there too 
nfitz
Superstar
Do we really need to be still having these debates now that construction has started?