Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[unimaginative2]

Just like Miller thinks

Toronto is downtown, who cares about Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke?

If we get a mayor that will understand that Toronto includes every part and not only downtown...This city will be even greater.

I don't know if it's that really. Miller is definitely thinking about the suburbs. No doubt he genuinely believes that this light rail plan will help. The problem is that Giambrone and others aren't really thinking about the differences between the ways people travel downtown and the ways people travel in the suburbs.

That depends on the route. There is no rail line that runs E-W across the north of 416. So, Sheppard subway cannot be substituted by GO.

Exactly. That's why I think regional rail can play the role of the DRL north of the Dundas West. On the other hand, Don Mills should be an extension of the DRL subway.

 

[Dan416]

I think those of us who believe in RAPID transit should form a group called "Rapid Transit Expansion Supporters" (note the acronym)

 

[kEiThZ]

I think those of us who believe in RAPID transit should form a group called "Rapid Transit Expansion Supporters" (note the acronym)

I am still working on the plan. I have looked up ad rates from the Star. Unfortunately, they're a bit out of the price range of what we can pool together....back to the drawing board. I got a new name in mind.... Though RTES ain't all that bad.

 

[Dan416]

I am still working on the plan. I have looked up ad rates from the Star. Unfortunately, they're a bit out of the price range of what we can pool together....back to the drawing board. I got a new name in mind.... Though RTES ain't all that bad.

I like RTES because it's the acronym for the TTC's last subway expansion study (the Rapid Transit Expansion Study) which looked at a Bloor extension to Dixie via Sherway Gardens and others. I looked at that study in the Mississauga Central Library when I was a teen

It also looked at looping YUS.

 

[nfitz]

Yep. Cause we are sick of transferring when there is absolutely no reason for a transfer to be there.

That's just twisted. To use that logic to it's extreme, you have to build the subway right to your house ...

Clearly there isn't enough demand on Sheppard east of Victoria Park to support subway. Insisting that such a minor route become subway is just plain selfish ... and justifying it by saying there shouldn't be a transfer doesn't make sense. Even if the original subway was built, you have to change at Agincourt to continue along Sheppard. So from Markham Road to Yonge you'd have to change from bus to subway at Agincourt. With this (much cheaper) plan, you change from LRT to subway at Don Mills (probably with less steps than at Agincourt.

Perhaps the biggest problem with the Sheppard LRT plan is that it tries to minimize transfers by extending the LRT to near the zoo. Perhaps a better solution would be stopping the LRT at Markham or Nielsen ... and then running a bus to the end of the line ... damn those Transit City folks ... trying to minimize transfers.

 

[Dan416]

That's just twisted. To use that logic to it's extreme, you have to build the subway right to your house ...

Clearly there isn't enough demand on Sheppard east of Victoria Park to support subway. Insisting that such a minor route become subway is just plain selfish ... and justifying it by saying there shouldn't be a transfer doesn't make sense. Even if the original subway was built, you have to change at Agincourt to continue along Sheppard. So from Markham Road to Yonge you'd have to change from bus to subway at Agincourt. With this (much cheaper) plan, you change from LRT to subway at Don Mills (probably with less steps than at Agincourt.

Perhaps the biggest problem with the Sheppard LRT plan is that it tries to minimize transfers by extending the LRT to near the zoo. Perhaps a better solution would be stopping the LRT at Markham or Nielsen ... and then running a bus to the end of the line ... damn those Transit City folks ... trying to minimize transfers.

Minimize transfers? Funny.

Sheppard deserves a proper terminus. AFAIK, Don Mills was never meant to be Sheppard's eternal eastern terminus.

 

[nfitz]

AFAIK, Don Mills was never meant to be Sheppard's eternal eastern terminus.

And I doubt it will be ... I'd be shocked if it was still the end of the line in 2059.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Well if the Sheppard East LRT gets built, I'd call it 50-50 the subway being extended by 2060. If it does, that just shows that Sheppard East was a mistake and should have been Subway all along!

I sure hope that Sheppard is a Downsview-STC subway by 2060. But if the SELRT was to be built before that, it's certainly saying something. The LRT is meant to be a quick fix with no regard for the future on Sheppard, and if we built it, that'll seriously come back to bite us later on.

 

[unimaginative2]

That's just twisted. To use that logic to it's extreme, you have to build the subway right to your house ...

Yeah, if your house happens to be the hub of most bus routes in the area, and to have hundreds of thousands of square feet of office space, thousands of high-density residential units, and a large shopping mall.

Clearly there isn't enough demand on Sheppard east of Victoria Park to support subway. Insisting that such a minor route become subway is just plain selfish ... and justifying it by saying there shouldn't be a transfer doesn't make sense. Even if the original subway was built, you have to change at Agincourt to continue along Sheppard. So from Markham Road to Yonge you'd have to change from bus to subway at Agincourt. With this (much cheaper) plan, you change from LRT to subway at Don Mills (probably with less steps than at Agincourt.

Again...for someone so breathtakingly sensitive about personal attacks... "just plain selfish" sounds an awful lot like a personal attack. Just sayin'... Anyway, several multi-volume TTC and Metro studies determined that there is enough demand on Sheppard to STC. East of Agincourt, there obviously isn't enough demand. The purpose of the subway was to connect the two nodes.

Nevertheless, you've completely missed Keithz's point: he was talking about the transfer at Kennedy. And he's right. The transfer at Kennedy makes absolutely no sense and there's more than enough demand to Scarborough Centre.

 

[waterloowarrior]

With Google Streetview, we don't even have to jog our memory or look at aerials to know what the Sheppard East route will look like, we can follow it the whole way

Here's one of the hubs of Transit City where two LRT lines will meet

Down the road, a bustling community core with municipal facilities, boutique shops, and a pedestrian

This corner will soon be home to cafes and culture

Well, I guess it's not exactly an Avenue, but LRT is a must for this dense corridor

There is little projected growth, little planned growth, and little potential growth for this area, that somehow managed to get two LRT lines. It's an area for stable neigbourhoods and low density employment. If you go west of Morningside, a lot of census tracts are losing population. These areas are outer suburbs at the edge of the urban area with low population density. Imagine if Brampton built 2 LRT lines to Torbram Road and Countryside Drive? The east part of Sheppard East seems like such a waste of money.

 

[Fresh Start]

^^ Ugh, the "I Hate David Miller" fan club starts with me. Lastman's starting to look like a good guy by contrast in retrospect.

 

[Fresh Start]

That's just twisted. To use that logic to it's extreme, you have to build the subway right to your house ...

Clearly there isn't enough demand on Sheppard east of Victoria Park to support subway. Insisting that such a minor route become subway is just plain selfish ... and justifying it by saying there shouldn't be a transfer doesn't make sense. Even if the original subway was built, you have to change at Agincourt to continue along Sheppard. So from Markham Road to Yonge you'd have to change from bus to subway at Agincourt. With this (much cheaper) plan, you change from LRT to subway at Don Mills (probably with less steps than at Agincourt.

What was the section of Sheppard East with a subway in terms of density prior to its inception and what is it today? Subways command urban growth and development, streetcars command frustrated laywaiters to flag down a taxi. A seven stop extension to the Scarborough Centre would intercept en route major employment and residential centres- Consumers, Bay Mills, Agincourt; and provide for Markham commuters a credible alternative to travelling all the way over to the Yonge Line for intra-416 travel.

And much cheaper? Do you realize that the SELRT to nowhere (unless this is somewhere?) now costs more than the funds it took to build the entire Sheppard Subway, even accounting for today's marked inflation. Yeah, really inexpensve!

Perhaps the biggest problem with the Sheppard LRT plan is that it tries to minimize tran sfers by extending the LRT to near the zoo. Perhaps a better solution would be stopping the LRT at Markham or Nielsen ... and then running a bus to the end of the line ... damn those Transit City folks ... trying to minimize transfers.

Even after Transit City it'll still take 3 modes to get across the full length of Sheppard East. At least extending the subway line further east minimizes the overall duration of trip seeing as, you know, trains don't get held up at red lights. And seeing as the higher demand sections of the corridor would be served via subway at Agincourt (or more acurately Brimley) and SRT at Markham-Sheppard/Malvern; the necessity for LRT to Meadowvale dissipates immensely. The 85 bus by then would have enough spare capacity to seat the few remaining customers that won't already become SRT converts.

 

[nfitz]

Nevertheless, you've completely missed Keithz's point: he was talking about the transfer at Kennedy. And he's right. The transfer at Kennedy makes absolutely no sense and there's more than enough demand to Scarborough Centre.

Extending the Danforth line to SC would certainly make more sense than the Sheppard subway extension ... though I wasn't discussing that. On the other hand, as the SRT operates significantly faster than the subway, unless the subway was built diagonally, it wouldn't save much time ... particularly if the frequency on the SRT was increased, and the platforms were moved to the mezzanine, so that there wasn't 3 stories to climb to make a transfer.

 

[nfitz]

And much cheaper? Do you realize that the SELRT to nowhere (unless this is somewhere?) now costs more than the funds it took to build the entire Sheppard Subway, even accounting for today's marked inflation.

If you've used an inflation rate of 2% as you have in other threads, then you should read those threads to understand why 2% is not appropriate. The appropriate inflation rate is closer to 6% ... your buying steel and concrete; not eggs and butter.

As far as a subway goes. The predicted demand for subway is significantly lower than what can be provided with LRT. I can see some argument for extending to Victoria Park ... but after that I don't see much ... particularly from Agincourt to SC!

 

[Voltz]

Anyway, several multi-volume TTC and Metro studies determined that there is enough demand on Sheppard to STC. East of Agincourt, there obviously isn't enough demand. The purpose of the subway was to connect the two nodes.

Those so called studies sucked every east west rider between Eglinton and Steeles onto Sheppard and completely ignored GO. And the long term ridership number they came up with was still on the low side for a subway. It was nothing more than a blatant attempt to justify the preferred technology, which must have been okay since it was for a subway line, right?

If a decent study can show there will be enough demand on sheppard within a reasonable time frame to justify the price then I will be first in line to support a subway (not that the absence of such demand means that I support the LRT). But until such a study comes then people just can't keep saying things like, 'city centres' 'logical terminus' or 'increased density' and expect them to be sufficient justification.