Ansem
Banned
Its a good idea, but politicians never follow good ideas.
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
DavidH
Senior Member
Of course they do. The problem is that definitions of what is a good idea vary.
isittimetomoveyet
Active Member
I know... why have we seen no reference to this model... especially after all the trips to Madrid last year. Plan out the next 10 - 15 years, get the bores in the ground and keep 'em running!
I would like to know what the costs per km/ could be here in Toronto if we followed this path... Sheppard needs to be finished as a subway, and thats all the way Westward to the YUS line.
Rainforest
Senior Member
From the connectivity viewpoint, what you are suggesting is the best option.
But then, there is an issue of balancing imrovements between the city areas. Cancelling the Sheppard E LRT line and giving nothing in return to the North-East won't be seen favorably by residents / passengers living there.
In contrast, trading that LRT for a shorter subway extension eastward will help people living near Sheppard (even if they live further east than the subway goes), as well as those living near Finch E and Ellesmere (provided that their buses are routed to the subway terminus).
The westward extension (Yonge to Downsview) would remain in the agenda, even if it actually happens beyond the 25-year plan.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
What passengers? Cancel this line and the NE will still have 3 other new lines to choose from.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Hm ... who had preached that the section of Sheppard East between Don Mills and Kennedy has a tremendous intensification potential, which would be best supported by a subway? The change in my opinion on the subway vs LRT in that corridor was largely based on your assessment.
Those 3 other lines would head south-west, and be of no use for those traveling west, e.g. to North York or York U. Two of those lines would serve areas east of McCowan, and be of no use at all for those between Don Mills and McCowan. And finally, the Morningside line does not make a lot of sense and might never get actually built.
In contrast, if Sheppard subway is extended to Kennedy or even just to Warden (if we have to fit into the 800 M saved by deferring the Sheppard LRT line), it can be used by E-W commuters from Sheppard, Finch E, and Ellesmere.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Uh, yeah, extend the subway and cancel the Transfer City line...as if I really need to say that again. I'm sure people that frequent only the politics or out & about sections know my position on this. Why would I stop supporting an extension of the Sheppard line?
Sheppard between Fairview and Agincourt is already as (or more) intensely developed as any other potential subway corridor in the city, other than the DRL.
There's a limited amount of people along Sheppard east of Agincourt, and once you subtract the to-downtown rush hour transit crowd that can ride the proposed GO line and the stupid RT extension, it is mathematically impossible to justify multiple other transit lines to the area.
A Midtown GO line trip that connects with the Spadina line at Dupont station could actually be a quick trip to York from the NE if buses are able to easily reach the stations. A one seat ride from Malvern to Fairview serves no measurable quantity of riders and solves no problems, but a one seat ride from Malvern to STC, followed by a one seat ride from STC to Yonge (and Fairview, and Downsview), would have clear benefits. Anyone that's ever been to Scarborough (or even looked at it on a map) knows how critical STC is as a hub, connecting many routes with many other routes, all meeting at the borough's only mall. It's a shame that STC is being thrown under the bus so that other places can get streetcar ROWs.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I guess the plan and the implementation sequence for the northern corridor would depend on the amount of funding that Metrolinx is willing to spend on it. If the amount has to stay within the cost of Finch W LRT + Sheppard E LRT, then I would build Finch W LRT as planned (Yonge to airport), but trade Sheppard E LRT for the easterly subway extension (likely it would be enough to get to Warden) and re-route Finch E and Ellesmere buses to make best use of that extension.
If / when more funding is available, the subway would reach Downsview in the west and Agincourt in the east.
Regarding the LRT service to Malvern, and on Sheppard east of Agincourt: I think that one LRT line to Malvern centre is justified - the one that goes south-west to, or via, STC. Since a section of that route would run on Sheppard, it would be useful to build that section is a combined LRT/bus ROW, so Sheppard buses could use it.
Once a subway station is at Agincourt and LRT tracks are on Sheppard just 3 km away (at McCowan), there might be a case for connecting them, i.e. adding LRT tracks between Agincourt and McCowan.
jks
Continuous Lurker
Agreed^^^^^^
I never once understood the fact that STC is being counted out of the equation. In their PDF, the TTC actually wrote that one of the biggest concerns people had at the public consultations was the connectivity to STC. What heppened, did they just completely ignore it?? How would one even get to STC from NYC once the line is in place. I can't imagine them keeping the Scarborough Rocket. So, one must take the subway to Don Mills, the LRT to McCowan/whatever stop is closest to STC, and then some kind of bus to the RT station?? come on, that is a major pain in hte ass. I would gladly give up the Jane, heck, even the Finch west LRT, to have Sheppard continued as a subway. Eglinton could stay LRT, but they really HAVE TO PUT IT IN THE GODDAMN RICHVIEW corridor. But, the TTC will not do this, because they must have lost their GODDAMN mind.
Rant over.
But I'm pretty sure most of you agree, no??
I never once understood the fact that STC is being counted out of the equation. In their PDF, the TTC actually wrote that one of the biggest concerns people had at the public consultations was the connectivity to STC. What heppened, did they just completely ignore it?? How would one even get to STC from NYC once the line is in place. I can't imagine them keeping the Scarborough Rocket. So, one must take the subway to Don Mills, the LRT to McCowan/whatever stop is closest to STC, and then some kind of bus to the RT station?? come on, that is a major pain in hte ass. I would gladly give up the Jane, heck, even the Finch west LRT, to have Sheppard continued as a subway. Eglinton could stay LRT, but they really HAVE TO PUT IT IN THE GODDAMN RICHVIEW corridor. But, the TTC will not do this, because they must have lost their GODDAMN mind.
Rant over.
But I'm pretty sure most of you agree, no??Rainforest
Senior Member
Requiring two transfers between STC and the Sheppard subway would be quite idiotic. Unless / until the subway reaches STC, they should at least maintain a one-seat ride between them. That could be Scarborough Rocket as is, or an express via 401, or an LRT branch.
Jane - yes (low ridership, and likely the need of extensive tunneling south of Wilson).
Finch West LRT is more valuable, IMO, than a cost-equivalent length of subway. That route has quite a few trip generators, and ROW is needed to dodge traffic congestion, which is quite common on Finch W during the rush hours.
toraerach
Active Member
I agree, Finch West should be an LRT line. It will bring rapid transit to underserviced Northern Etobicoke, connect to Humber College, and get you pretty close to the Woodbine Racetrack and Wild Water Kingdom (around which we should base all transit planning).
Jane on the other hand makes no sense as an LRT line especially if it has to be tunneled. Kipling would make much more sense providing a rapid transit connection between North and South Etobicoke while connecting with both the Finch W and Eglinton LRTs, the Bloor-Danforth subway, GO Transit, the proposed Mississauga Dundas LRT, and possibly the 501 (or 507 if they ever decide to reinstate it). Instead of running the St. Clair line to Jane, run it down Runnymede to Dundas and on to Dundas West Station as was proposed some time ago.
Of course, there would be no benefit to this plan at all if the LRT lines end up not saving anyone time, which I'm not entirely convinced of yet. I'm glad to see they left off the Jane and Scarborough-Malvern LRTs to near the end of construction of Transit City as the two both seem the least valuable. It's unfortunate (though probably not coincidental) that Sheppard E is going ahead so soon. I can't decide on whether it's best that they're constructing it from East to West though. It will delay service coming to the line at first, but it also gives them time to reconsider extending the subway to meet up with it...please.
Rainforest
Senior Member
This is a very good point. It is somewhat surprising that Jane was chosen over Kipling originally, and outright odd that such alternative is not being considered after the Jane's EA work revealed the need of extensive tunneling.
Actually, part of "Scarborough-Malvern LRT" along Eglinton, Kingston Rd., and perhaps up to UTSC would be valuable. Not sure why it needs to go into Malvern though, as Malvern will get a much faster and more direct route to Kennedy Stn via STC.
That would be an interesting turn. But the problem is that completing the subway from Don Mills to Agincourt will take 7 to 10 years. It would be odd to have LRT tracks completed by say 2013, and then wait till 2018 before the subway is completed and LRT starts operating.
One potential solution is to build a combined LRT / bus ROW on Sheppard east of Agincourt, so that it is useful for buses before LRT starts running.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Regarding the Jane LRT, there are certainly big problems with the project, and it may never happen, but I don't think it's a mystery why this corrider was chosen. Apart from the evident social factors, the TTC's operating statistics show that Jane's bus ridership, about 39K per day, exceeds Kipling and Islington combined, each of which have less than half of Jane's riders. It would be cheaper and easier to build an LRT on either, but the benefit would be less too.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
That's total ridership, though, not peak ridership. Kipling and Islington are close enough together that some riders will switch over. They also run through an area with lower transit usage than Jane does, so there's more potential riders.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Do not forget the the seven lines of Transit City are the just the first seven. By the time the last construction ends around 2017, then the next set of LRT/HRT lines and/or extensions should be in the planning stage. We should be ready to begin the next lines once the last ones are finished.
There should be construction for transit each and every year, not just planning and wishing, but real physical construction.
There should be construction for transit each and every year, not just planning and wishing, but real physical construction.