Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[UD2]

I'm not arguing that your opinion isn't well-founded because, seriously, in an ideal world with unlimited funds, Sheppard would and should be a subway to STC.

I'm just saying, as someone who is attempting to start an anti-Sheppard LRT movement, your Mississauga address hurts you. Campaigns like SOS and the anti-Blue22 folks in Weston got some traction with the media because they were founded by local people who could present relatable stories about how the transit plans would hurt their day-to-day lives. (Even if they were both kind of dumb.) You, as a transit fan from Mississauga who is unlikely to use any transit on the Sheppard corridor on a day-to-day basis, are not a good face for this movement.

You want this to work? Find some people who actually live and work on Sheppard who are concerned about the current plan. Then try to get local Councillor support. Continually profess your support for the TTC and the expansion of rapid transit. Avoid allying yourself with those who talk about the war-on-cars at all costs. Wear sunscreen.

He can't find anyone in the M3B and surrounding area because the people who live in the area and may actually use the LRT (me included) don't want to take the chance and push for a subway that we currently have neither the money or the political will to build.

The ones who are yelling and crying to stop this LRT are probably mostly the transit geeks with no understanding on how our political and bureaucratic structure functions and who, if nothing ends up getting built on this corridor, won't be negatively affected.

 

[nfitz]

My understanding of English grammar says that "We the undersigned petition the City of Toronto, the Toronto Transit Commission, the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada" is addressed to all four entities mentioned.

Yes, I suppose that when using address as a verb, then the petition itself does address them all; but in the address line itself, using address as a noun, only the City of Toronto is mentioned. That address line indicates to who the petition is delivered. (I'm not sure how the petition is actually delivered though ... does someone print it and present it to city council?)

Clearly the whole thing is a wash though ... there's more posts (and posters?) here discussing the petition, than people who have signed!

 

[DavidH]

Clearly the whole thing is a wash though ... there's more posts (and posters?) here discussing the petition, than people who have signed!

Agreed, and further, a petition without addresses and phone numbers so that names can be verified against City of Toronto residents is going to be meaningless to Council regardless of the number of names on it. I doubt that this kind of internet petition would be granted any consideration whatsoever.

 

[sixrings]

I think you need a TAMIL TIGER like protest to further your movement...

ACTUALLY shutting down the gardener would show the city how critical transit is.. Then again once the TTC figures out that they are soo needed theyll go on strike again and ask for more and more money..

But seriously you need a protest and shutting down the gardener during rush hour would make the city think twice.. The city wont stop you because they believe everyone should be able to protest peacefully.

 

[GraphicMatt]

TORONTO - A group that opposes the proposed Sheppard E LRT has begun what is being reported as their twenty-sixth consecutive day of protesting at Bessarion subway station. The news media was tipped off about the protest yesterday. The angry crowd has blocked all access to the subway platforms.

"I have a lot more to look at now," says one TTC booth attendent who wishes to remain anonymous. "They help pass the time."

When reached for comment, TTC chair Adam Giambrone said "The TTC is not aware of any station by that name."

 

[GraphicMatt]

But seriously you need a protest and shutting down the gardener during rush hour would make the city think twice.. The city wont stop you because they believe everyone should be able to protest peacefully.

TORONTO - A group of protestors opposed to the proposed Sheppard East LRT have struck again, preventing the groundskeeper of the new much-touted 'green roof' on the Eglinton W subway station from completing his daily duties.

When the gardener, a 33-year veteran employee of the city, reported to work Monday to cut the lawn, trim the hedges and tend to the small bed of flowers, he found himself blockaded by an angry crowd.

"I just need to cut the damn grass," said the man.

 

[sixrings]

WHY in the world would these ppl target one of Torontos least used station other then they were scared they would get arrested at a frequently used station. Try that same stunt at Union or yonge and bloor and see what happens...

 

[toraerach]

I think you need a TAMIL TIGER like protest to further your movement...

ACTUALLY shutting down the gardener would show the city how critical transit is.. Then again once the TTC figures out that they are soo needed theyll go on strike again and ask for more and more money..

But seriously you need a protest and shutting down the gardener during rush hour would make the city think twice.. The city wont stop you because they believe everyone should be able to protest peacefully.

It wouldn't make the city think twice - it would just piss off a lot of people and further insane war on the car rhetoric. I doubt there are enough people enraged enough about this to shut down the Gardiner, but even if there was all we'd get are a few "Transit Activists Blockade Highway" headlines and the inevitible pro-car editorials that would follow. After the Tamil protest, no one talked about the civil war in Sri Lanka really. People talked about how the protests were affecting them and the issues at hand got completely lost.

 

[sixrings]

Actually I living downtown and being white truthfully was pissed with the tamil tiger protests. It frusterated the hell out of me.. MY wife who is brown not tamil, was even more upset. Infact she would walk on the otherside of the road when we bumped into them because she didnt want to be mistaken for them...

ALL this to say they did get attention.. Where they completely failed was they didnt have a good PR guy. I have no idea why these people are upset. All I see is a group of people downtown with flags with tigers and guns chanting.

IF you had the same style of protest for the TTC but you also had all the paper work with suggestions of a better TC that you could give out and someone who could articulate themselves to the media you might make a few people think twice. BUT a PR person and enough paper work and flyers and posters could do wonders.

However you will never get this type of support because the people who care about this project more or less have good jobs and arent going to take time off work to organize something that will effectively cost them income.

 

[kEiThZ]

He can't find anyone in the M3B and surrounding area because the people who live in the area and may actually use the LRT (me included) don't want to take the chance and push for a subway that we currently have neither the money or the political will to build.

The ones who are yelling and crying to stop this LRT are probably mostly the transit geeks with no understanding on how our political and bureaucratic structure functions and who, if nothing ends up getting built on this corridor, won't be negatively affected.

That's a rather unfair view. I grew up in Malvern. My family still lives there. And every one of them that I've talked to think a subway would be so much better than LRT (once they found out what LRT is...a fancy tram). That's why I support a subway. I also want a more connected network with an extension to the west. And I can accept that it could be built in phases...ideally with an extension to Agincourt GO first, to STC next, and to Downsview last. As presently constituted the LRT will help very few people.

Consider the following scenarios in the post TC era:

1) From Neilson and Sheppard or Morningside and Sheppard, I want to get downtown. I would simply take a short bus ride on Sheppard to the SRT extension to catch a ride to Kennedy and proceed from there. SELRT is not required, and would make a marginal contribution to travel times at best.

2) From VP and Sheppard to Don Mills Station. Service is actually worse. There used to be a bus going by every minute. Now there's a tram going by every 5 mins. It'll take longer to get to Don Mills. Ditto from say McCowan and Sheppard.

3) From Meadowvale and Sheppard to Don Mills Station. It's about 15 km. You have a choice of 23 kph on LRT or 17 kph for 10 km and 30 kph for 5km using a bus/subway combo. The latter works out to only 6 mins longer. However, it provides a much more frequent and comfortable service to where the bulk of the population is (prior to Agincourt). And there's nothing that says a little can't be spent to build curbside bus lanes to improve bus speeds, which would actually make the bus/subway combo faster without sacrificing stop spacing or frequency significantly.

And these scenarios don't even include the impact on parallel arterials. What use is the SELRT to Finch East or Ellesmere/York Mills bus riders? However, a Finch East bus that meets the subway at Kennedy would actually have demand. Ditto for an Ellesmere bus terminating at STC or a York Mills bus terminating at VP station.

 

[nfitz]

That's a rather unfair view. I grew up in Malvern. My family still lives there. And every one of them that I've talked to think a subway would be so much better than LRT (once they found out what LRT is...a fancy tram). That's why I support a subway.

Hang on ... how does a subway help Malvern? The closest station would be Kennedy/Sheppard (or perhaps the Agincourt GO) ... or Scarborough Town Centre. With Transit City they are getting a grade-separated extension of the SRT right to Malvern Town Centre.

 

[Dan416]

My understanding of English grammar says that "We the undersigned petition the City of Toronto, the Toronto Transit Commission, the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada" is addressed to all four entities mentioned.

And yes, Metrolinx is not mentioned, which is simply wrong. As has been said above, whether one likes Metrolinx or not, they are the agency in charge, and ignoring them in the petition simply makes it easier to ignore the petition.

I have had the body of this petition posted for the good part of the week. It never once occurred to me to address a petition regarding an LRT in Toronto to GO Transit. I am sorry. If someone had made the suggestion, I would have considered it. That said, once the petition has been made, it is not allowed to change it. That is why I waited several days to take in all the suggestions I could.

I had signed earlier to demonstrate my general displeasure with the street level LRT designs - assuming Metrolinx has no changes of plans we haven't heard about - but I've reconsidered based on the general silliness of the above discussion and retracted my signature at the petition site. As much as I would prefer a single contiguous grade-separated northern higher-speed route across the top of the city, the idea that getting rid of Miller would suddenly result in an extension of the Sheppard subway is ridiculous, and much of the above discussion just leaves a bad taste.

The ease of forgery of this petition (witness the Adam Giambrone signature) will make this easily ignored regardless of how many signatures are on it.

Okay, um, hello, it's an INTERNET petition. People can sign John Smith or Bilbo Baggins or Darth Vader if they want. Does that mean you have any LESS people signing it? NO! The important thing is the number of names, not the names themselves. Witness any petition and you'll see fake names. I can't believe you're even making this an issue. It's a part of the game when it comes to petitions.

A petition is a petition. It's not a referendum. It's not a vote. You don't need a Toronto address to sign it. You don't need to be a registered voter.

And honestly, I'd prefer a petition done by hand. I'd prefer people wrote in to their MPs and MPPs. But if the people of Toronto don't care enough to do so, I can't force their hands. This is the extent to which I'm willing to go. I'm trying to inform people of what a big mistake is planned for Sheppard.

If people are willing to live with the Giambronedongle, fine. Live with it. I don't care THAT much, since it doesn't affect me AT ALL.

If you Torontonians are WILLING to live with mediocrity, FINE.

Oh and by the way, you can't "retract" your signature on an online petition site by SIGNING THE PETITION AGAIN! *rolls eyes*

I think everyone should take a look at the petition and have a gander at the lack of understanding of what a petition is. It's NOT a message board. It's not a discussion. If you agree, you sign. If you do not, you DO NOT sign it! If you disagree and sign it anyway with a comment saying you disagree, guess what, it doesn't matter, because no one is reading it. It's purely for numbers. If you double post, it makes it doubly silly. Honestly people! Where's the knocking head against a brick wall smiley?

 

[DavidH]

I have had the body of this petition posted for the good part of the week. It never once occurred to me to address a petition regarding an LRT in Toronto to GO Transit.

What does GO have to do with this? Metrolinx is more than just GO, and in this context, it's Metrolinx that is in charge of transit planning in the GTA. It's THEIR plan and if you want to change the approach, the first step is to get their plan changed. There is no way a subway extension on Sheppard will happen without a change to their plan. Even if the city had the money to build a subway extension all by itself, it's NOT legally allowed to do so. Go read the Metrolinx Act carefully if you don't believe me.

Okay, um, hello, it's an INTERNET petition. People can sign John Smith or Bilbo Baggins or Darth Vader if they want. Does that mean you have any LESS people signing it? NO! The important thing is the number of names, not the names themselves.

The fact that Internet petitions have these limits is not important. What is important is whether the people you are addressing the petition to will be impressed with an internet petition with no verifiability of names. Arguing the limits of the technology with them will get you nowhere.

All I'm trying to say here is that IF you want to have a successful petition, you may want to look at other options than the current petition site. Online petitions can be workable but they need to have more detail in terms of information captured so that you can hand people a quality list of names.

Funny thing, I'm not allowed to retract my signature according to you, but IT is okay for Darth Vader to sign it. And then you complain about people putting negative comments. On one hand, you say "this is what internet petitions are" and then complain when people operate within the limits of what the software allows them to do.

 

[nfitz]

People can sign John Smith or Bilbo Baggins or Darth Vader if they want. Does that mean you have any LESS people signing it? NO! The important thing is the number of names, not the names themselves.

Your intellectual dishonesty is shocking.

I guess though, that tells us how seriously to take the petition though!

 

[Ansem]

now now! lets calm down.

I was thinking why not a facebook page like the DRL? and we invite all of them to the Sheppard page...