Transit City Plan

[k10ery]

TTC is saying revenue is $1.96 per rider covering all types of fare media. They are unsure if this is the right number. Using this number, 50% of their surface routes are making a profit which I have never seen before this year.

Under current TTC methods of fare data, TTC has no idea what their fare revenue is for subways

Here is the current surface routes info that I have broken down with various ranking on various pages.

You are right on Streetcar = Subway transfers, but depends on which line.

OK, I get it now. The $1.96 is an average revenue per rider which is compared to the route-specific cost information to measure if the line is "profitable".

But because transfers are free this totally overstates profitability, right? Even if I just transfer from the 7 to the 511, say, and never mind the subway, I get counted as a rider twice, even though I paid my fare only once.

And yes like nfitz said all this must be the best argument in favour of Presto - more data for planning, not fewer ticket collectors.

 

[k10ery]

Just use the total revenue from fare divide by the total boarding to calculate the average fare per boarding?

For 2010:
Revenue from fare: $932,731,000
Total boardings: 796,571,300
Average fare per boarding: $1.1709

If you use revenue per boarding instead of revenue per rider I guess it solves the double counting I mentioned. But it still doesn't solve the problem that people use the TTC as a network. If a rider takes a bus to the subway, does it make sense to put half that fare revenue on the bus, and half on the subway? Because that's what your calculation would do.

I guess in an ideal situation you model the whole network and ask what happens to network total profit if you increase or cut service on a single route.

 

[snowystar]

If you use revenue per boarding instead of revenue per rider I guess it solves the double counting I mentioned. But it still doesn't solve the problem that people use the TTC as a network. If a rider takes a bus to the subway, does it make sense to put half that fare revenue on the bus, and half on the subway? Because that's what your calculation would do.

Yes, the figure is revenue per boarding regardless of fare media and transit mode. A transfer from bus to subway would count as 2 boardings - one on the bus and one on the subway.

The average transfer per trip in 2010 is 1.67, if you divide the boarding count by 477 million riders. Interestingly enough, if you divide the $1.96 figure by 1.67, it also end up with $1.17. I guess the $1.96 is actually the average fare paid per linked trip.

 

[Palma]

Yes, the figure is revenue per boarding regardless of fare media and transit mode. A transfer from bus to subway would count as 2 boardings - one on the bus and one on the subway.

The average transfer per trip in 2010 is 1.67, if you divide the boarding count by 477 million riders. Interestingly enough, if you divide the $1.96 figure by 1.67, it also end up with $1.17. I guess the $1.96 is actually the average fare paid per linked trip.

How about dividing per distance travelled?

 

[Palma]

Why would you think the new LRT line would only be 18 km/hr? (it's only 12 km from Don Mills station to Morningside). 30 minutes is more reasonable on LRT.

The star did a story this week and had a reporter get on the st clair streetcar from Gunns loop at 8:05am and it took 29 min to get to Yonge St. And we know there are tons of stops on St Clair due to all the residential neighbourhoods plus I think at St. Clair west you need to transfer but I don;t remember now. I don't know how many km the line is. But I imagine there will be way less stops on Sheppard so I am not sure if this helps in the debate on how long a trip will take on Sheppard LRT

 

[EnviroTO]

There are many issues on St.Clair which make it no comparison. Single door boarding and fare collection, many stops, many stoplights, and a loop into the station at St.Clair west that adds time. I would expect that LRT on Sheppard would be double the speed.

 

[nfitz]

The star did a story this week and had a reporter get on the st clair streetcar from Gunns loop at 8:05am and it took 29 min to get to Yonge St. And we know there are tons of stops on St Clair due to all the residential neighbourhoods plus I think at St. Clair west you need to transfer but I don;t remember now. I don't know how many km the line is. But I imagine there will be way less stops on Sheppard so I am not sure if this helps in the debate on how long a trip will take on Sheppard LRT

It's about 6.6 km. Not comparable to a suburban street like Sheppard though, with all the stops, and traffic lights, etc. The scheduled operating speed here in AM rush is only 16 km/hr (25 minutes ... I guess that journey was only at 14 km/hr ... but generally I thought the 512 was fairly close to schedule.

 

[rbt]

Operating cost per route is easy, but revenue per route? If they publish that I have not seen it - can you provide a pointer?

They frequently show %age cost recovery from the farebox on a per route basis for surface routes. In fact, many of Ford's cuts were based entirely on that number. You need to estimate revenue per route to get that.

I have never seen that type of number for a subway or SRT line.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Off topic but why did TTC remove the tiles on the walls at York Mills Station?

 

[smallspy]

Off topic but why did TTC remove the tiles on the walls at York Mills Station?

Water infiltration into the station box damaged the tiles, to the point where one of the walls of tiles - the tiles are freestanding, and not attached to the wall behind - collapsed. They removed the rest as a precaution.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Silence&Motion]

Tim Hudak is still trying to insert himself into the transit city debate: http://torontoist.com/2012/03/spotted-tim-hudak-still-a-subway-believer/

In this case he's promising to:
1. Put the entire Eglinton LRT underground
2. Expand the Sheppard Subway
3. Not raise the transit funding above the agreed upon $8.4 billion.

So if an underground Eglinton LRT costs $8.2 billion (assuming there are no cost overruns, which is a ridiculous assumption given that they never figured out how to get across the Don), how much of a Sheppard expansion will $200 million buy us?

 

[rbt]

In this case he's promising to:
1. Put the entire Eglinton LRT underground
2. Expand the Sheppard Subway
3. Not raise the transit funding above the agreed upon $8.4 billion.

During his election campaign he was talking about eliminating Metrolinx and giving municipalities more power to make their own transit decisions.

He seems to be unhappy with Toronto's transit decisions.

 

[gweed123]

Tim Hudak is still trying to insert himself into the transit city debate: http://torontoist.com/2012/03/spotted-tim-hudak-still-a-subway-believer/

In this case he's promising to:
1. Put the entire Eglinton LRT underground
2. Expand the Sheppard Subway
3. Not raise the transit funding above the agreed upon $8.4 billion.

So if an underground Eglinton LRT costs $8.2 billion (assuming there are no cost overruns, which is a ridiculous assumption given that they never figured out how to get across the Don), how much of a Sheppard expansion will $200 million buy us?

Batshit crazy. 'Nuff said.

 

[Dan416]

Batshit crazy. 'Nuff said.

That said, I don't think we should underestimate Hudak. We made that mistake with Harper. Remember when it was Martin/McGuinty/Miller? What if it became Harper/Hudak and some mustache-twirling Toronto mayor with a last name that starts with H. Who could it be?

 

[Palma]

Hudak is just taking the opposite position of whatever the Liberals take. Its all ;politics. If he were to take power it would be a different story. If the lRT ever gets started tunneling, and do to cost overruns, the provincial deficit, etc, he would end the LRT at Yonge and cancel the rest of it. He knows an underground LRT is not needed east of Yonge (well past Bayiew or Larid that is)