Transit City Plan

[Solid Snake]

Why would you think the new LRT line would only be 18 km/hr? (it's only 12 km from Don Mills station to Morningside). 30 minutes is more reasonable on LRT.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...ases/Benefits Case _ Sheppard-Finch_Final.pdf

Page 8

The average speed of the in-street LRT is estimated at 22 kph. This speed would result in an
estimated travel time of 40 minutes on the Sheppard East LRT from end to end

That's from Meadowvale to Don Mills, sorry

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

That's Don Mills to Meadowvale. Don Mills to Morningside is 35 minutes.

 

[M II A II R II K]

It would be better not to ask the people for input.

 

[Electrify]

Wouldn't that be preferable for both Eglinton east and Sheppard east with paralleled bus operating for local stops?
I know when Giambrone was TTC Chair, he didn't want to even here it.

I think we should move on and propose ideas to make it faster and more efficient

Absolutely. Hell, even with stops a kilometre/half mile apart, you could still ARGUABLY cut local bus service. Portland's Yellow line has stops about a half mile apart north of downtown, with no parallel bus service (http://g.co/maps/xzd6s). Likewise, transit planner Christopher MacKechnie from about.com has this to say about rapid transit stop spacing:

A final factor promoting a 1/2 mile stop spacing is the effect that the rail line will have on the currently existing bus service. Operating rail service is expensive, and the money has to come from somewhere. Frequently this money comes at the expense of bus service. In fact, Salt Lake City is proposing to pay for the operation of their new light rail lines by canceling all bus service on Sunday. Having more frequent rapid transit stops can enable the transit system to pay for the operation by canceling the bus route that operates along the rapid transit corridor rather than reducing service on bus routes in other areas. Toronto is a great example of a city that does this: the majority of Bloor and Yonge Streets, which the subway lines travel underneath, only have bus service late at night after the subway stops operating. Average stop spacing of 1 mile will likely require local bus service still be operated along the rapid transit corridor to serve the "no man's land".

http://publictransport.about.com/od...roper-Stop-Spacing-Of-Rapid-Transit-Lines.htm

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't answer your question. Yes, I definitely agree, but at this point I think it might be too late to discuss adjusting the stop spacing on Sheppard. The debate should not have been between subways and LRT, but what kind of LRT we should build. I personally think we are building the wrong kind, but at this point I think we are going to have to accept what we get on Sheppard.

I am hoping that between a mix of of lower than expected ridership, poor public opinion, and observing LRTs in other parts of Southern Ontario that when getting to the final design stages of Eglinton and Finch that they decide to adjust the stop spacing to be comparable to our subway lines.

 

[k10ery]

Well, they calculate it for every bus route and every streetcar route.

They know total funds in and what everything but subway costs. We, on this forum, continually take $TOTAL and subtract ${SUM ALL ROUTES}. TTC doesn't do that and publish the number.

Makes me think that it doesn't actually add up that way.

Operating cost per route is easy, but revenue per route? If they publish that I have not seen it - can you provide a pointer?

Anyway, revenue on surface routes seems easier to estimate than on subway. My sense is that, for downtown streetcars anyway, a pretty small share of trips either originates or terminates with a subway transfer.

 

[nfitz]

That's Don Mills to Meadowvale. Don Mills to Morningside is 35 minutes.

According to Solid Snake's reference from Metrolinx, they simply calculated 40 minutes by taking the distance from Don Mills station to Meadowvale (14.6 km I measure) and dividing by a speed of 22 km/hr - without any actual modelling of the actual time (which would presumably be somewhat faster, given that there is no intersection for the first 1.2 km to Consumers Drive.

But even assuming that 22 km/hr is correct (personally I think it would be 30+ km/hr for the first 1.2 km, and at least 23 or 24 km/hr for the rest), that's still only 33 minutes from Don Mills station to Morningside. What is your source for 35 minutes?

Though what would be nice is a serious cull of stops, to go to the type of spacing you'd expect for subway. Which should get you closer to 28 km/hr and a 25 minute trip.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

If drivers see someone running for the LRT, would they stop and wait or would they be instructed to just go and stay on a strict schedule?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If drivers see someone running for the LRT, would they stop and wait or would they be instructed to just go and stay on a strict schedule?

I'm not an expert on how the TTC plans to operate the LRTs, but I would think that the drivers to have very stick schedules like subway drivers. If someone is running for the LRT I'd expect the drivers to close up and drive away - just like on the subway.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I'm not an expert on how the TTC plans to operate the LRTs, but I would think that the drivers to have very stick schedules like subway drivers. If someone is running for the LRT I'd expect the drivers to close up and drive away - just like on the subway.

I wish bus drivers did that right now. They sometimes wait for a passenger, then the light changes, and then the commute takes longer. It happends to me at least once a week on the #85

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Quick question about priority signalling:

Will the signal lights for the LRT turn green fast enough that the driver won't need to slow down at intersections. If the driver has to slow down at every intersection and wait for the light to change it would significantly slow down the speed of the LRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I wish bus drivers did that right now. They sometimes wait for a passenger, then the light changes, and then the commute takes longer. It happends to me at least once a week on the #85

I disagree. I think that drivers should use discretion.If the light isn't going to change there is nothing wrong with waiting for 10 seconds as someone gets on the bus. Also if it is late at night and someone is right outside the bus they should let them in. Could you imagine the PR disaster if someone got shot on a dark street corner just because the bus driver decided not to wait another 5 seconds.

 

[drum118]

Operating cost per route is easy, but revenue per route? If they publish that I have not seen it - can you provide a pointer?

Anyway, revenue on surface routes seems easier to estimate than on subway. My sense is that, for downtown streetcars anyway, a pretty small share of trips either originates or terminates with a subway transfer.

TTC is saying revenue is $1.96 per rider covering all types of fare media. They are unsure if this is the right number. Using this number, 50% of their surface routes are making a profit which I have never seen before this year.

Under current TTC methods of fare data, TTC has no idea what their fare revenue is for subways

Here is the current surface routes info that I have broken down with various ranking on various pages.

You are right on Streetcar = Subway transfers, but depends on which line.

 

[nfitz]

Operating cost per route is easy, but revenue per route? If they publish that I have not seen it - can you provide a pointer?

Anyway, revenue on surface routes seems easier to estimate than on subway. My sense is that, for downtown streetcars anyway, a pretty small share of trips either originates or terminates with a subway transfer.

I expect we won't have a great handle on this until Presto is fully implemented. But imagine the data we will have then, when a good proportion of the data is fully recorded, to figure out how people do travel.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I disagree. I think that drivers should use discretion.If the light isn't going to change there is nothing wrong with waiting for 10 seconds as someone gets on the bus. Also if it is late at night and someone is right outside the bus they should let them in. Could you imagine the PR disaster if someone got shot on a dark street corner just because the bus driver decided not to wait another 5 seconds.

From my past experiences, the wait can sometimes be around 20 seconds

 

[snowystar]

TTC is saying revenue is $1.96 per rider covering all types of fare media. They are unsure if this is the right number. Using this number, 50% of their surface routes are making a profit which I have never seen before this year.

Under current TTC methods of fare data, TTC has no idea what their fare revenue is for subways

Here is the current surface routes info that I have broken down with various ranking on various pages.

You are right on Streetcar = Subway transfers, but depends on which line.

Just use the total revenue from fare divide by the total boarding to calculate the average fare per boarding?

For 2010:
Revenue from fare: $932,731,000
Total boardings: 796,571,300
Average fare per boarding: $1.1709