Transit City Plan

[nfitz]

Ok, out of 70mil worth of LRT per km, how much of the portions does vehicles go? I'd assume that vehicles costs at most reasonable (at realistic view).

Good question. At the pricing for the new 204 cars for the existing lines, each 2-car train for Eglinton would cost $11.7 million. They are designing to a capacity of 8,000 ppdph, so if travelling 23 km/hr that would require a train every 800 metres. As trains have to travel both directions, that would be 2.5 trains a kilometre; say 2.9 with about 15% spares. So that's about $33 million per kilometre no including maintenance facilties.

That's almost 50% of the cost just for the trains! Though the $70-million per km estimate comes out of the Finch and Sheppard LRT lines ... I'm not sure the design capacity is the same there. Still some people talk about $70-million per kilometre being outrageously expensive, and I just spent half that amount on the vehicles ... and haven't even got a track to run them on, or anywhere to keep them.

 

[nfitz]

My numbers were real. I used the TTC's trip planner to plan a trip during morning rush from Brentcliffe-Kennedy Stn as I've stated.

Your travel time might have been scheduled for PM peak, but it's not AM peak. The biggest issue however, is your distance was 25% greater than the real distance.

 

[nfitz]

We cannot talk about the underground section in isolation when conditions along the surface can easily affect headways and running times.

But that's not what we were talking about; we were talking about the 5,000 forecasted demand - which is all in the proposed underground section, closest to the Allan.

Because it isn't. There's stretches of the YUS line that clock 40 kiliometres per hour in-between stops.

So? There are 2-km station spacing there. LRT operating speed is 60 km/hr; if there was a 2-km tunnel and no stops, it could average it at 40 km/hr. The acceleration profiles are very similar.

Wait, Network 2011 wasn't a serious proposal? Why are you trying to deceive us?

Network 2011 didn't even go east of Bathurst! Yes, it did go west of Weston to Renforth ... but it was supposed to be constructed initially as Ottawa-style BRT. That wouldn't have got you a subway anytime soon.

Um, what? It's almost 9 and a half kilometres since Kennedy Stn is a ways in from the Kennedy intersection requiring a circuitous loop into the #34's bus bay.

It's 8.1 km.

Check a shorter piece that doesn't include the looping at Kennedy. Say the 7.8 km from Brentcliffe to Kennedy Road. Even in the afternoon peak, this takes 24 minutes - 19.5 km/hr ... and that's assuming that it's actually on time. It doesn't often happen. It also assumes that congestion isn't going to increase; however we have studies that show congestion will be much worse by 2031. Remember that this all started back in 2005 or so, when TTC projected that travel times were going to get a lot worse on several key routes, as traffic congestion got worse in the future.

 

[officedweller]

Best map I've seen of the truncated plan.
I presume that the Finch Line will have it's own Operations and Maintenance Facility, since it's not connected to the other LRT lines?

From the Transport Politic:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/...ity-as-toronto-gears-up-for-mayoral-election/

 

[Dan416]

That map really illustrates the mess in Scarborough

 

[dsantesteban]

Why should Transit City be built?

Hey transit nerds. I'm doing an incredibly biased newspaper article on Transit City. Give me every single bad thing about Transit City getting cancelled. I have a bunch, but I want more. And please be very creative.

Thanks,
- dsantesteban

 

[kEiThZ]

Because it's a David Miller conspiracy .... I don't quite know to what end....but that guy is up to something. I just know it!

On a serious note, do we really need another thread rehashing all the various debates we've been through. I think there's just philosophical differences between Transit City proponents and opponents. And I'd sum it up by saying "quantity vs. quality". Though I will lend some credence to the other side by quoting now retired General Hillier who once said, "Quantity has its own quality." So who knows.....

 

[ssiguy2]

But there is mush more to it than just the technology.
None of the lines cross the city. Eglinton is NOT a crosstown. For some reason, which only the maker knows, the Eglinton line stops at Kennedy but then you transfer onto a new train using the same technology to head in the same direction. Its truly bissare and it's actually possible that you will have to get off the streetcar only to find yourself on the same streetcar heading in the same direction.
The lines will actually funnel more traffic onto the existing lines which is the last thing Toronto needs. There are at least twice as many stops as there should be. Stops should average 1 to 2 km not every 2 and a half blocks which is the approx distance of the 300 metres that the current lines are proposed as.
None of the lines makes use of the existing rail/hydro ROW and all line are straight meaning if one wants to get downtown it requires a longer trip due to Toronto being on a grid.
Contrary to what Miller says it will actually make the streets much more cluttered and ugly with all the needed electrical poles and will divide streets down the middle. Regular streetcars can add an urban flair but ROW restrict pedestian life ie ST.Clair. They take up parking which many businesses depend upon These ROW also totally depend on the traffic moving well. One little stale or accident blocks the entire system up.
Due to these reasons the system is just to damn slow. The best transit trip is the one people don't remember because its quick, comfortable, easy, and convenient as TC doesn't offer these things.

 

[ssiguy2]

BTW for your article you may want to use this as an example using TC from STC to York which are two of the busiest points in the system...................
STC take ICTS further north and east to Malvern then head back west by transferring onto the Sheppard streetcar then at Don Mills transfer onto the subway til Yonge and then transfer onto the Yonge north to Finch then transfer back onto a streetcar west to Spadina and the transfer back onto a subway north to YorkU.

 

[kettal]

thanks for trashing up yet another thread with your usual incoherent rants

 

[T-Bor]

I just don't understand why a dedicated bus line coudln't accomplish the same thing. Based on numbers we've seen, going from one end of the Sheppard LRT (as an example) by TC vs bus will save the average rider maybe 5 minutes. For some reason the numbers 16 km/h averaged on a bus and 18 km/h on a streetcar spring to mind. It seems to me like we're spending billions of dollars on relatively useless technology and infrastructure that will not get anybody else out of cars or save time for commuters. The streetcars are still going to be bound by existing traffic conditions at the intersections since (as far as I know) they will be using the standard streetcar payment system as opposed to proof-of-payment a la Queen Street or the Skytrain in Vancouver. All these thigns combined makes it look to me like TC is going to be a huge waste of money (except Eglinton, IMHO) that could be better spent elsewhere. Like, say, a subway along Queen.

 

[Justin10000]

I would recommend you not include any of ssiguy2's comments.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Mods, can we vote to ban ssiguy2? He's not the least bit entertaining anymore.

 

[Mapleson]

If you are focusing on the negative consequences of TransitCity, many would say where LRT service is being implemented there will be a reduction in demand for subway service, as 'adaquate' service volumes already exist. While it is possible to upgrade a route from LRT to HRT, the incremental time until the HRT is needed is much longer.

Next, it's the additional load they place on our intersections. Intersections are the failing point of our transportation network as we try to send multiple streams of vehicles through the same area. (Exit/Entry points serve the same failing point on our highway system.) A segregated RoW means any vehicle that would turn left along the block now must make a U-turn or take a circumfluous route. Both of these mean additional unnecessary movements and cars taking up 'spaces' in the green phase. End result is sitting through extra red lights to get through the intersection.

Third, according to David Miller on 92.5 The Edge this morning, the axed portions of Transit City (Jane and Finch West) represents "social injustice" as the effected areas are primarily lower income neighbourhoods and must take the bus.

 

[kEiThZ]

The biggest issue with Transit City, imho, is that it plans on loading up the Yonge line while making absolutely zero attempts at relieving the existing congestion on that route. Just imagine what Yonge and Bloor is going to be like in a few years with a Finch West LRT and Eglinton LRT and a Sheppard East LRT (indirectly) feeding into the Yonge line.