Ansem
Banned
The EA is not only justifying it but saying the demand meets TTC subway standards and would be profitable. Just dig to VP and when more money comes, curve the line to STC with stops at Warden, kennedy etc.
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
The EA is not only justifying it but saying the demand meets TTC subway standards and would be profitable. Just dig to VP and when more money comes, curve the line to STC with stops at Warden, kennedy etc.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Building the subway to VP makes no sense if they aren't going to extend it further. It may suck for those who work at Consumers to have to take the LRT one stop but it makes more sense than spending the better part of a billion dollars to overlap LRT and a subway on the same stretch unless its part of a more substantive extension of the Sheppard subway. It would make sense if there was significant demand at Consumers from the west. But as mentioned before, there aren't even enough riders to justify a stop on the rocket buses.
When it comes to the Sheppard LRT, there is a lot of discussion missing on the benefits. I would have preferred a subway extension to Scarborough Centre, but let's not ignore the benefits of LRT. The Sheppard LRT will be nearly 15 km long as opposed to the 5.6km of subway that was originally planned for Sheppard East. The line will be a significant step up in transit service to the entire northern half of Scarborough. It will shorten trip times from Don Mills to STC. It will significantly improve travel times in Scarborough (albeit not as much as a subway). It will connect the Metro Zoo to the rest of the city with rapid transit. These are all positives. Yes, a subway would have been better. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water here.
When it comes to the Sheppard LRT, there is a lot of discussion missing on the benefits. I would have preferred a subway extension to Scarborough Centre, but let's not ignore the benefits of LRT. The Sheppard LRT will be nearly 15 km long as opposed to the 5.6km of subway that was originally planned for Sheppard East. The line will be a significant step up in transit service to the entire northern half of Scarborough. It will shorten trip times from Don Mills to STC. It will significantly improve travel times in Scarborough (albeit not as much as a subway). It will connect the Metro Zoo to the rest of the city with rapid transit. These are all positives. Yes, a subway would have been better. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water here.
Voltz
Senior Member
I don't know what you have been reading (or smoking), but there is absolutely no justification to extend the subway at all, and there is absolutely not enough demand at VP to meet subway standards.
GTS
Active Member
One arguement for a subway extension is that a subway attracts more new riders then a bus or a streetcar would. Streetcars draw more riders then a bus as well but not as many as a subway. Consumers is a popular destination as their is a lot of different types of work in that area. One important part of all the Transit City lines is that it was to compliment the Ridership Growth Plan. This plan wanted to increase transit use in the GTA so that the movement of goods and services would be more efficient.3ed3e
ShonTron
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There's also no justification for the outer reaches of the Sheppard LRT either - particularly west of Markham Road, but even past Brimley, the 85 bus starts to die out in terms of ridership.
The congestion between the DVP and VP on Sheppard and the deep bore of the subway requires a tunnel (unless the TTC goes with a difficult transfer in order to work with the Finch surprise dog-leg) to at least Consumers. If you get the subway to Vic Park (not much further) you get past the congestion, you get fewer buses headed to Don Mills, and could provide the same, if not faster, service for Sheppard East riders even just maintaining the 85 and 190 buses east of there. And Scarborough gets another subway stop.
nfitz
Superstar
Could he have been reading (or smoking) the TTC report that indicates there is enough demand at VP to meet subway standards?
Which of course raises the question of what you have been smoking (or reading)?
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I laughed so hard... Thanks, that really lifted me up after that depressing episode of House
For the sake of keeping our options open for the future, extending the Sheppard Subway to Victoria Park wouldn't be a bad idea, but I really think that LRT would bring people out about the same that a subway would. Again, I'd rather just see the transfer eliminated. Once people see how fast the new "streetcars" will be, the Sheppard line would be done well with no transfer and more stations on the existing subway line. The underground part will be useful when NYCC becomes a downtown in it's own right, because it won't block up traffic like an above ground LRT would, and more stations would help during the densification as well.
kEiThZ
Superstar
We can always hope that TC II is a subway building program that would include Sheppard subway extensions in the east and west with the Sheppard LRT effectively functioning as the surface transit component of the corridor ( like the Yonge bus).
Voltz
Senior Member
Meaning the original BS EA for the sheppard subway? The one with the flawed demand model that sucked every east west rider from eglinton to steeles? The one with immense political pressure to make the subway look good?
nfitz
Superstar
The one that didn't overpredict current ridership?
Voltz
Senior Member
I doubt that, and what was it's predictions?
Voltz
Senior Member
I don't particularly like the outer parts of the LRT either, but I do think the demand and congestion in the inner parts requires more than regular busses.
Dan416
Senior Member
I really don't understand this hard-on people have for replacing the Sheppard subway with LRTs. What, should we start running LRT between Old Mill and Royal York now too? Those stations aren't used much. They sure as hell don't need subway do they? They can survive on LRT. Hell, let's go back to the past and convert all of Bloor-Danforth to LRT. That way we can interline it with both the future Dundas LRT and the Scarborough LRT and the Sheppard LRT. Ridership isn't really that high on portions of B-D anyway. Hmm I think I feel a poll coming up...
Amphibius
Banned
How can you argue for an Eglinton subway line on one hand yet not see the futility in keeping HRTs along Sheppard? While most of the demand along Sheppard Avenue is artificailly propped up due to feeder bus reroutes meanwhile actual walk-in usage there is horribly low; Eglinton has high-density nodal-type developments along most of its entire length from Mt Dennis (Weston Rd) to Guildwood (Kingston Rd). The longer we procrastinate over whether to shut down the stubway, the more and more the cost to replace or extend it inflates; and the less and less likelihood there'll be enough money left over to finance proper, sustainable higher-order transit for the areas of the city that really need it e.g. Eglinton proper. Why should future generations suffer for Lastman's mistakes? If the cost to modify the existing tunnel ROW to accept LRT vehicles is less than the overall pricetag to extend the line to Victoria Park, then guess what...
GTS
Active Member
I have said this on another thread as well, but I hope the TTC doesn't have blinders on at the moment. It looks like it is all LRT or nothing they way they are going on. I hope that they use some of the mass of funding that was just announced on new subway construction and not all LRT. Maybe invest some on reviving the Eglinton Subway and invest some more in extending the Sheppard subway to Vic. Park at least. Most of the funding should be left for some of these LRT projects, but, not all of it, hopefully they try and diversify it.
When I first moved to Toronto, from Vancouver, the first public meeting of the TTC I attended at City Hall a councillor put on the table of extending the Bloor subway line westward to Sherway Gardens. Since moving here I always thought that a station there would service all the Mississauga feeder buses that presently use Islington station much better. Mississauga has such a large polulation and needs better access to rapid transit then it presently has. I think federal funding for this extension is more likely to flow since the feds open their purses more for project that extend into other regions like the Canada line in Vancouver to Richmond, the new line in Montreal to Laval and the Vaughn extension here in the GTA.
When I first moved to Toronto, from Vancouver, the first public meeting of the TTC I attended at City Hall a councillor put on the table of extending the Bloor subway line westward to Sherway Gardens. Since moving here I always thought that a station there would service all the Mississauga feeder buses that presently use Islington station much better. Mississauga has such a large polulation and needs better access to rapid transit then it presently has. I think federal funding for this extension is more likely to flow since the feds open their purses more for project that extend into other regions like the Canada line in Vancouver to Richmond, the new line in Montreal to Laval and the Vaughn extension here in the GTA.