Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

So it'd be the Yonge-(Front? Lakeshore?)-Dufferin line? Interesting. I know 29 Dufferin is a very busy route.

Yonge-Lakeshore (or Bremner)-Duffin, yup. The subway would basically replace the previously-planned WWLRT through that stretch. And realistically, the WWLRT was going to be underground until just before Spadina anyway, so the cost differential isn't really that much for that section. For the stretch from Spadina to Bathurst it can either run under the Gardiner, or do cut and cover through the wide median of CityPlace (again, the WWLRT routing). From there it can either curve up to King, or go through the Ex. Either way, it would then run up Dufferin.

The key to all of that is the hub that is created at Dufferin & Queen, with the WWLRT, QWLRT, Y-D Subway, and various GO REX lines all at one spot. Huge hub potential there.

The one thing that I'm trying to figure out how to solve is the dilemma of what to do with Dufferin north of Bloor. Not enough to justify a subway, but having it be a T-station is going to put even more pressure on the Dufferin bus. I'm thinking of doing something like what I proposed for Jane south of Bloor, which is peak period buses only lanes for 2 of the 4 lanes, but to where? Eglinton? Or all the way up to Wilson Stn? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[jamincan]

Perhaps go up Dufferin to Dundas, and then continue up Dundas past Bloor to Jane.

 

[BurlOak]

Perhaps go up Dufferin to Dundas, and then continue up Dundas past Bloor to Jane.

I thought Dufferin to the railway to Bloor is a bit smoother of a curve. This allows a station between King and Queen then the curve. Hopefully a station could be fit at Dundas/College and then at Bloor.

 

[gweed123]

I thought Dufferin to the railway to Bloor is a bit smoother of a curve. This allows a station between King and Queen then the curve. Hopefully a station could be fit at Dundas/College and then at Bloor.

Interesting idea. Although with this I can potentially see the Dufferin bus suffering negatively, because it will still need to run the few blocks between Bloor and Queen. Ideally I'd like to see that bus stop at Bloor, with a subway south of there.

If the subway does need to go north of Bloor though, the alignment that I would prefer is under Dufferin to just north of Dupont, and then if you look at the aerials there is actually a hydro corridor that runs diagonally up to the northwest, which cuts right over the intersection of Lansdowne and Davenport. From there, it would cut through Earlscourt Park up to St. Clair West, and then through the Sandra Park trail to reach the Georgetown rail corridor, where it would end at the hub at Black Creek.

Doing this would allow most of the construction to be cut and cover, while still passing through some pretty decently dense neighbourhoods. More importantly, it wouldn't be a duplicate service to the Brampton-Markham GO REX which would be using the Georgetown corridor.

 

[sixrings]

Every time I think of a DRL that goes up dufferin I cant help but think it would make sense for it to continue north stopping at dupont, eglinton, glencarin, lawrence and then head east to connect to lawrence west station.... At that point the subway has gone so far north on dufferin that there is no need to run a bus service. Another reason I suggest it going as far north as lawrence is that it can get people from lawrence and the eglinton lrt line to use it instead of the sooner then later over crowded univeristy spadina line.. I also would have my DRL on the east side go up to lawrence for the main reason that the lawrence bus always has to divert down to eglinton anyways.. This elimintates transfers... Just a thought tho.

Another Idea I use to play with is a western DRL that goes up Bathurst and Stops at ST CLaire West Station...

 

[gweed123]

Every time I think of a DRL that goes up dufferin I cant help but think it would make sense for it to continue north stopping at dupont, eglinton, glencarin, lawrence and then head east to connect to lawrence west station.... At that point the subway has gone so far north on dufferin that there is no need to run a bus service. Another reason I suggest it going as far north as lawrence is that it can get people from lawrence and the eglinton lrt line to use it instead of the sooner then later over crowded univeristy spadina line.. I also would have my DRL on the east side go up to lawrence for the main reason that the lawrence bus always has to divert down to eglinton anyways.. This elimintates transfers... Just a thought tho.

Another Idea I use to play with is a western DRL that goes up Bathurst and Stops at ST CLaire West Station...

The Spadina subway is really in a dumb spot, and it makes creating any kind of a grid-like subway system really hard. The problem with running it straight up Dufferin is by the time you hit Lawrence, the gap between Dufferin and the Allen is only a little bit more than the gap between Yonge and University downtown. Running 2 subways that close barely makes sense in downtown, let alone out in the mid-416.

The reality is that any alignment of the DRL (or in this case the West Yonge Extension) north of Bloor needs to cut west almost as much as it cuts north, in order to avoid bumping into the catchment area of the Spadina subway. This is why I think the hydro corridor alignment makes a lot of sense, because it runs through some important areas to service, but doesn't duplicate the service of either the Spadina subway or the Brampton-Markham GO REX.

And running the DRL East up to Lawrence is interesting. I wonder if running the Lawrence East bus down Don Mills into Science Centre station instead of down Leslie would make any difference. Especially with my plan with the Don Mills BRT, I don't think the couple blocks down Don Mills would be a big deal, especially if it ran express once it hit Don Mills.

 

[Platform 27]

As the number of threads on any transit thread approaches infinity, the odds of it turning into a fantasy transit map discussion approaches 1

re: a Dufferin South subway, isn't the peak demand point that makes the Dufferin bus so busy today north of Bloor, with longer-haul passengers coming southbound from the 'burbs and mostly transferring to the Bloor-Danforth line?. Obviously, a western DRL needs a leg back north somewhere and Dufferin is a better candidate than, say, Dovercourt or Christie. But to what extent is the reputation of Dufferin as a heavily-used corridor really based on demand on a part of route other than where you've got your subway? And will the Eglinton line change travel patterns fairly substantially in the nearish future by intercepting a lot of that ridership further up and reducing demand on the Dufferin bus to more Ossington-like numbers?

 

[Rainforest]

The one thing that I'm trying to figure out how to solve is the dilemma of what to do with Dufferin north of Bloor. Not enough to justify a subway, but having it be a T-station is going to put even more pressure on the Dufferin bus. I'm thinking of doing something like what I proposed for Jane south of Bloor, which is peak period buses only lanes for 2 of the 4 lanes, but to where? Eglinton? Or all the way up to Wilson Stn? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

The 2+2 arrangement is nearly impossible for the section of Dufferin between Bloor and Eglinton, since most of residents have no driveways or garages. Thus they get permits, and park their cars on the street. So, the city would have to either prohibit them from owning cars altogether, or create some storage area within a reasonable walking distance from each group of houses; neither is likely to happen.

Btw, the same issue might exist on Jane south of Eglinton; but I am not familiar with that area and cannot comment on its built form.

 

[sixrings]

Well the more I think about it a western drl that goes to st claire via bathurst makes sense to me its short enough that it wouldn't cost a fortune. It wouldn't need a stop at dupont because its so close to the already existing dupont station. So I'm thinking. St claire, bloor, dundas, college, queen, king, front. Then along front to spadina (cn tower station) along wellington to Union station north which would be located on wellington with path connections to union st andrews and king station. Then go east to pape and up to eglinton. I think you might be underestimating the potential value of another line so close to the university line. It will allow people to take multiple routes easier and it will make sure the density stays in the core. The farther the lines are from each other the wider the density will be spread out. I don't know with the trend of everything being built downtown if we should really be making it a priority to spread out the lines. What matters is if the lines are accessable. A grid like subway line will help that.

I can understand if you think the two lines are to close. So I'd suggest if that's the case running the DRL up keele to eglinton. Then the keele bus and jane bus can run into the drl.

 

[Rainforest]

Notably, the provincial transit experts seem to be very averse to the idea of Danforth subway extension.

They are more open towards the Sheppard extension, even though the ridership counts for Sheppard would be lower than for Danforth.

The first transit network proposed by Metrolinx in 2008 contained numerous subway extensions: DRL, Yonge North, Sheppard, and Eglinton; but it contained SRT rather than Danforth extension.

During the 2010 mayoral elections, George Smitherman, an insider of provincial politics, did propose Danforth extension; but he put it on the hardly realistic SRT alignment rather than on the much more realistic Danforth - Brimley or Danforth - McCowan route.

When Ford was toying with the Sheppard extension in 2011, McGuinty offered him up to 2 billion towards that project, in exchange for his agreement to keep parts of Eglinton LRT on surface. (It was Ford who refused the arrangement.)

But when Stinz came up with the One City plan in 2012, the provincial transportation minister was quick to dismiss just one, but pivotal, element of that plan: Danforth extension on the realistic McCowan alignment.

What is the reason? I guess they are concerned about the optics of digging a new tunnel between Kennedy Stn and STC, when the SRT guideway already exists between those points, and there are competing transit needs.

In contrast, the optics of extending Sheppard is that new areas get much improved transit service. The expected ridership counts may be unimpressive, but most of the voters and many of the opposing politicians simply do not get the counts.

 

[gweed123]

The 2+2 arrangement is nearly impossible for the section of Dufferin between Bloor and Eglinton, since most of residents have no driveways or garages. Thus they get permits, and park their cars on the street. So, the city would have to either prohibit them from owning cars altogether, or create some storage area within a reasonable walking distance from each group of houses; neither is likely to happen.

Btw, the same issue might exist on Jane south of Eglinton; but I am not familiar with that area and cannot comment on its built form.

But if I'm not mistaken, during rush hours there is no parking allowed in those outside lanes. This is what I'm saying, that the lanes be used for buses only during peak periods, and parking during off-peak.

Notably, the provincial transit experts seem to be very averse to the idea of Danforth subway extension.

They are more open towards the Sheppard extension, even though the ridership counts for Sheppard would be lower than for Danforth.

The first transit network proposed by Metrolinx in 2008 contained numerous subway extensions: DRL, Yonge North, Sheppard, and Eglinton; but it contained SRT rather than Danforth extension.

During the 2010 mayoral elections, George Smitherman, an insider of provincial politics, did propose Danforth extension; but he put it on the hardly realistic SRT alignment rather than on the much more realistic Danforth - Brimley or Danforth - McCowan route.

When Ford was toying with the Sheppard extension in 2011, McGuinty offered him up to 2 billion towards that project, in exchange for his agreement to keep parts of Eglinton LRT on surface. (It was Ford who refused the arrangement.)

But when Stinz came up with the One City plan in 2012, the provincial transportation minister was quick to dismiss just one, but pivotal, element of that plan: Danforth extension on the realistic McCowan alignment.

What is the reason? I guess they are concerned about the optics of digging a new tunnel between Kennedy Stn and STC, when the SRT guideway already exists between those points, and there are competing transit needs.

In contrast, the optics of extending Sheppard is that new areas get much improved transit service. The expected ridership counts may be unimpressive, but most of the voters and many of the opposing politicians simply do not get the counts.

When Metrolinx did the Big Move in 2008, Transit City was already in motion. As you know, it contained a refurb and extension of the SRT. Metrolinx just basically adopted Transit City without any modifications into the Big Move. Had Metrolinx had some input into Transit City, I think a subway extension would have been on the table.

McGuinty did offer the B-D extension as a compromise to Ford, so that to me says that the province was at least willing to consider it.

And I think the reason to Chiarelli rejected OneCity immediately was not because of the B-D extension, but because of the plan itself, and the turmoil it would create.

Had the order of plans and the timing been a little bit different, I think that we would be seeing the B-D extension as a primary choice, with the refurb and extension as Plan B. Unfortunately though, the timing didn't work out.

 

[Rainforest]

But if I'm not mistaken, during rush hours there is no parking allowed in those outside lanes. This is what I'm saying, that the lanes be used for buses only during peak periods, and parking during off-peak.

I witnessed quite a few parked cars on that section of Dufferin, during the peak hours

I did not have a chance to look at no-parking signs, and am not sure if such restrictions are in place for that section. But I would think that even such restrictions are in place for out-of-area cars, they do not apply if you have a street parking permit and place your car in front of your house. Otherwise, what are you supposed to do on a weekday when you are sick, on vacation, working a non-standard shift etc.

When Metrolinx did the Big Move in 2008, Transit City was already in motion. As you know, it contained a refurb and extension of the SRT. Metrolinx just basically adopted Transit City without any modifications into the Big Move. Had Metrolinx had some input into Transit City, I think a subway extension would have been on the table.

No, the first scheme published by Metrolinx contained subways along both Sheppard and Eglinton, and it contained DRL from Dundas West to Pape; it was quite different from Transit City. They accepted LRT on those routes at a later time.

That's why I believe it is telling that they never wanted the Danforth extension.

McGuinty did offer the B-D extension as a compromise to Ford, so that to me says that the province was at least willing to consider it.

McGuinty offered him up to 2 B for Sheppard, but not for B-D.

And I think the reason to Chiarelli rejected OneCity immediately was not because of the B-D extension, but because of the plan itself, and the turmoil it would create.

It is possible that the sheer scope of the plan caused his concern, and not the B-D extension specifically.

However, his wording referred to SRT versus B-D extension very specifically; he mentioned the money spent for the SRT redesign.

I would not suspect a hidden agenda based just on the last episode. But all of them combined make me think that the province does not want Danforth extension.

 

[Palma]

The Spadina subway is really in a dumb spot, and it makes creating any kind of a grid-like subway system really hard. The problem with running it straight up Dufferin is by the time you hit Lawrence, the gap between Dufferin and the Allen is only a little bit more than the gap between Yonge and University downtown. Running 2 subways that close barely makes sense in downtown, let alone out in the mid-416.

The reality is that any alignment of the DRL (or in this case the West Yonge Extension) north of Bloor needs to cut west almost as much as it cuts north, in order to avoid bumping into the catchment area of the Spadina subway. This is why I think the hydro corridor alignment makes a lot of sense, because it runs through some important areas to service, but doesn't duplicate the service of either the Spadina subway or the Brampton-Markham GO REX.

And running the DRL East up to Lawrence is interesting. I wonder if running the Lawrence East bus down Don Mills into Science Centre station instead of down Leslie would make any difference. Especially with my plan with the Don Mills BRT, I don't think the couple blocks down Don Mills would be a big deal, especially if it ran express once it hit Don Mills.

Or get rid of the stops on spadina north of eglinton (Glencarin, Yorkdale and Willson) since it makes more sense for the DRL to run along a major street corridor then presently running through nothing. Oh but I forgot, then the stops currently planned to Vaughan would be cut off. Guess this whole DRL should have been planned out as a priority before the expansion to Vaughan, Or maybe they can have the GO run from the planned Vaughan stops to Eglinton on Spadina (if it were possible), afterall the stops at Glencarin, Lawrence, Yorkdale and Wilson are all outside anyways. Then the DRL could run up to lawrence from bloor along Dufferin. This would be my wish which I know will never happen

 

[Palma]

Well the more I think about it a western drl that goes to st claire via bathurst makes sense to me its short enough that it wouldn't cost a fortune. It wouldn't need a stop at dupont because its so close to the already existing dupont station. So I'm thinking. St claire, bloor, dundas, college, queen, king, front. Then along front to spadina (cn tower station) along wellington to Union station north which would be located on wellington with path connections to union st andrews and king station. Then go east to pape and up to eglinton. I think you might be underestimating the potential value of another line so close to the university line. It will allow people to take multiple routes easier and it will make sure the density stays in the core. The farther the lines are from each other the wider the density will be spread out. I don't know with the trend of everything being built downtown if we should really be making it a priority to spread out the lines. What matters is if the lines are accessable. A grid like subway line will help that.

I can understand if you think the two lines are to close. So I'd suggest if that's the case running the DRL up keele to eglinton. Then the keele bus and jane bus can run into the drl.

It does not make sense since as you pointed out Bathurst is too close to Yonge St and there is already a subway stop along St. Clair on Spadina which is really a few min walk from Bathurst and St. Clair (and should have been located right at the intersection for people getting off the Bathiurst buses). Dufferin is more heavily congested then Bathurst.
The problem with Keele St is that Keele St is cut up - it runs south of Eglinton to Rogers, then you need to go west to Weston Road and then travel south again till you get to St Clair and then it becomes Keele St again. I don;t think also that Keel St is that congested. I use it from south of Lawrence to Rogers and rarely have an issue other then that jigsaw on Keele St and Gore. I think building the Crosstown along Eglinton was a good opportunity to connect Keele north to Keele south by expropriating those few houses at Gore and Keele St. For sure developers will come calling and will more than likely buy those 5 houses. The province should have done that.

 

[nfitz]

No, the first scheme published by Metrolinx contained subways along both Sheppard and Eglinton...

I don't recall that at all. Do you have a URL for that so I can refresh my memory?