Transit City Plan

[rbt]

Conc. Doug Ford just asked TTC GM Byford what would he do if he could choose between LRT and subways.

He said that:

"According to his expertise, he would build a subway on Sheppard and that this city needs more subway line and this needs to be address as soon as possible"

To be more specific, Byford was asked what he would choose if unlimited funding was given but tied specifically to Sheppard (could not be used anywhere else).

When the question was broadened to city wide with unlimited funding (envision the US Military donating their $900B budget to Toronto Transit every year), he specifically mentioned the DRL.

He was not asked what he would do given todays fiscal reality nor did Doug propose giving Sheppard unlimited funding or unlimited revenue generation tools.

Nor did Doug ask him to prioritize streets in terms of importance in the event unlimited funding was not available. I.e. is subway on Sheppard more important than a subway DRL.

It was a very leading question.

 

[Dan416]

As if the LRTistas don't word things in a leading way either. Right.

 

[rbt]

As if the LRTistas don't word things in a leading way either. Right.

I'm not certain who or what an LRTista is (San Diego has lots of señorita's that ride their tram system so perhaps you refer to them); but yes, many councillors use leading questions.

This specific quote was pulled out of context for the question asked. I wanted to ensure that the context of the question was added back. The context is important because after the lunch break the question was asked with a different set of constraints and Byford's answer was different.

Councillor Ford was doing his job as a politician. My issue was with repeating the quote here without including the question. It's disrespectful to Byford.

 

[eltodesukane]

Los Angeles new LRT, the Expo Line
http://www.buildexpo.org/

 

[Marcanadian]

It seems there's a lot of confusion with operating cost estimates for subways vs LRT's. Doug Ford claims LRT operating costs are higher than subways, while Josh Matlow claims subways have the higher operating costs. Does anyone know the truth?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It seems there's a lot of confusion with operating cost estimates for subways vs LRT's. Doug Ford claims LRT operating costs are higher than subways, while Josh Matlow claims subways have the higher operating costs. Does anyone know the truth?

Subways likely have higher operating costs. You need to maintain the stations, rails, tunnel strength, lights, escalators, water pumps, emergency exits, vehicles, storage facilities, washrooms etc... With LRT you basically need to manage the vehicles, rails, wires, stops and the maintenance facilities.

 

[Rainforest]

For the same length, a subway line will certainly have much higher operating costs than an LRT line.

But if you compare one whole network to another, the answer is not so obvious. (Network 1: a few subway lines plus a lot of feeder bus routes; Network 2: many LRT lines plus buses on the remaining routes.)

 

[Palma]

I heard John Tory say it is more expensive for subways because longer tunnels, deeper tunnels, larger platforms, etc

 

[Marcanadian]

Subways likely have higher operating costs. You need to maintain the stations, rails, tunnel strength, lights, escalators, water pumps, emergency exits, vehicles, storage facilities, washrooms etc... With LRT you basically need to manage the vehicles, rails, wires, stops and the maintenance facilities.

That's what I figured, but Doug would argue otherwise. He cited the American Public Transit Association, who says that LRT's have higher operating costs. I'd like to see some real data on this issue and I'm rather surprised that more Councillors aren't asking for this information.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That's what I figured, but Doug would argue otherwise. He cited the American Public Transit Association, who says that LRT's have higher operating costs. I'd like to see some real data on this issue and I'm rather surprised that more Councillors aren't asking for this information.

Well we all know that Doug isn't very smart. Anyways, to get a good picture of maintenance costs we should take a look at the cost to maintain the Spadina and St. Clair ROW. They should give us a fairly accurate picture of the LRT maintenance cost.

 

[rbt]

That's what I figured, but Doug would argue otherwise. He cited the American Public Transit Association, who says that LRT's have higher operating costs. I'd like to see some real data on this issue and I'm rather surprised that more Councillors aren't asking for this information.

Strictly speaking, something in mixed traffic with similar vehicle capacity will cost more for drivers to move an equivalent number of people. Due to slow movement additional trains/drivers are required.

However, when we say "subway" we include far more features than simply an underground train in bare-bones station like Queens Quay but with the elevator removed. Compare Queens Quay station to Bessarion station, and don't forget the elevator as an extended feature. Those differences have very little to do with rolling stock but add to the operating cost.

In-tunnel communication systems, internal network, fare gates, booths, security cameras, PA system, power safety switch, designated waiting area tools, security, medical kits, etc.), etc. This is without considering differences in capital repair (SOGR expenses) that may occur.

I seriously doubt that a Toronto subway like Sheppard costs less to operate on a per km basis than our existing streetcars in median such as St. Clair. Straight forward to see. We sink about $200M per year into our subway lines to replace components (not considering rolling stock). Our largest LRT years were about $80M when we built St. Clair and simultaneosly did track replacement on Dundas? Streetcar expenditures are normally quite a bit lower (not considering rolling stock -- big budget item coming up).

 

[Marcanadian]

Upon further research, the APTA says LRT is more expensive than subways on a per passenger-mile basis. I suspect they're taking into account only the tracks and the vehicles, rather than all of the necessary elements required in a typical subway line. I've even encountered some research that states LRT's are less expensive than buses, due to higher capacity levels, requiring less vehicles.

 

[Palma]

I saw this post in the Toronto Star under the comments section and thought it was great so I am pasting it below.

Dear Scarborough,
You are a suburb. You are not downtown. You are not the same as downtown. You have different needs than downtown. Just because downtown has something does not mean that you need it. You will never be the same as downtown. This does not make you bad people. We do not hate you. Want and need are two different things. We just don't want to pay for a luxury that you do not need. Signed, Downtown.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Upon further research, the APTA says LRT is more expensive than subways on a per passenger-mile basis. I suspect they're taking into account only the tracks and the vehicles, rather than all of the necessary elements required in a typical subway line. I've even encountered some research that states LRT's are less expensive than buses, due to higher capacity levels, requiring less vehicles.

This is probably because many LRT systems in US cities are in sunbelt cities whose public transit ridership is so low, they shouldn't even be building LRT. Places like San Jose have fewer boardings than the Sheppard East bus - on a 70 km system!

When it comes to subways/HRT, New York biases the estimate becuase it carries 2/3 of American heavy rail passengers alone.

 

[nfitz]

Upon further research, the APTA says LRT is more expensive than subways on a per passenger-mile basis.

Sounds like Doug Ford is basically saying that subway lines like BD and YUS are cheaper to run per passenger-mile than an LRT like Sheppard East.

Well, duh ... if we were going to get even half of YUS or BD ridership on the Sheppard subway we wouldn't be having this debate. Clearly the cost per passenger-km on a subway is going to be higher than an LRT with the same ridership, or even twice the ridership.