Transit City Plan

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Cities the size of Toronto need S U B W A Y S. Elevated rail and high frequency commuter trains are basically the same thing as subways because they are high capacity and grade separated. A tram line is not the same thing as a subway. Most tram lines are just like buses with a slightly higher capacity. Maybe they provide enough capacity for a line like Waterfront West. Whenever there is an 18 lane freeway that is the busiest highway in North America and it is basically impassible in rush hour that you need SUBWAYS.

You haven't yet demonstrated how having an 18 lane freeway translate into the need for a subway line - where do the trips originate and where are the destinations? How will building a subway from say STC to Downsview change that without even knowing the commuting patterns? Repeating soundbites like "cities of our size; world class city; etc" isn't making a logical case. I've noticed that few, if any actually bothered to rebutt the matter of projected ridership - other than some vague assurance that somehow if we don't build a subway it will get a) saturated in no time or b) be totally unsuccessful in attracting riders. Really?

ILuvTO:

But the other side of me wonders where we would be today if we applied that same thinking to the Yonge/University/Spadina and Bloor/Danforth lines?

Actually, both the Yonge Line and BD started off as streetcar (!) lines - and were converted into subways as they reached saturation point. Why is that such a logical approach no longer suffice? That we somehow have to jump right into subways?

AoD

 

[GraphicMatt]

The mayor and his brother are talking about launching a campaign called "Save Our Subways." If gweed and other posters still have access to saveoursubways.ca, you may want to update it to include a message indicating that you are not affiliated with Rob Ford.

 

[gweed123]

The mayor and his brother are talking about launching a campaign called "Save Our Subways." If gweed and other posters still have access to saveoursubways.ca, you may want to update it to include a message indicating that you are not affiliated with Rob Ford.

I didn't do the web stuff, but I'll send the person who did a message. I'm not sure how many variations of the domain name we registered.

 

[RC8]

This was so obvious when I saw the whole session at City Hall regarding transit. Some councilors are actually aware of that too. Unfortunately, most of them only see their ward and don't think of the city as a whole. Some of them were using Houston, Minneapolis as example for LRT and one Councilor said; "We're not Houston or Minneapolis, We're Toronto and it's time to take pride of that fact"

You have all those international organisation ranking Toronto so high on any type of list in term of how powerful the city is in a global scale and yet we keep electing people who still view us as a "Montreal+".

A councilor said with good reason that taking the LRT sends the wrong message to both Queen's Park and Ottawa; the message that Toronto will take whatever it's being thrown at for Transit. The correct message is having Eglinton as Subway (In my mind elevated is 100% acceptable) and demand more funding for Sheppard, Finch, DRL and orther streetcar and LRT lines. Toronto is the financial heart of Canada and Ontario and if our population spend more time at making Torontonians more aware of it, the city would be in a better position to pressure higher government to do more.

So it's totally fine to give subways (Spadina line) with a poor ridership (Past Steeles West) and we shoot ourselves and fight among ourselves on Eglinton??? We truly have incompetent politicians who knows nothing about "well politics". If the province can fund York fantasy dreams why can't they fund projects that are decades late and needed???


How do you think Paris get's it done?
What is France without Paris? The citizens know it and they constantly reminds France of that.
What is England without London? They know it and they constantly reminds England that they cannot be denied. Same for New York City, Tokyo etc...

I'm not a Ford follower but this city is really short-sighted on Transit and the upper level of government likes it the way it is so they can tell us right in our face
"Give me your tax $$$, I'll invest it elsewhere and give you whatever's left...once every 2 decades..."

BTW, politicians being the predictable creature that they are, I predict Metrolinx and the Province will bury Victoria Park Station to not piss off Scarborough too much...maybe even Warden unless it's elevated

world's upside down...
York wants subway=we sign them a check with no strings attached without even having consider LRT in the first place
Toronto wants subway=What??? You're just as dense as some major world cities, twice 1 million more people than Montreal but their subway is 1km shorter, so what are you saying? LRT's are too good for you now???? you don't need subway...

The problem is that people want subways to use them like they would a commuter-rail.

What people who want to commute downtown every day from scarborough need is increased GO train frequency and reduced prices.

There is no reason at all to build a subway in a place that looks like this:

http://maps.google.ca/?ll=43.769264...cbp=13,-72.1380374954389,,0,4.870141258611781

The Sheppard subway is already under that, and it never should have been.

Toronto needs more subways, but it needs them in the core. Using money (the province's or ours) to build subways in Sheppard is wasteful and unnecessary. In a city like Miami an intersection like that wouldn't even have bus service. If that intersection was in London or Paris it'd be pretty much in the countryside.

There are many parts of Toronto with densities to support subways. Let's build them there first.

 

[ILuvTO]

You haven't yet demonstrated how having an 18 lane freeway translate into the need for a subway line - where do the trips originate and where are the destinations? How will building a subway from say STC to Downsview change that without even knowing the commuting patterns? Repeating soundbites like "cities of our size; world class city; etc" isn't making a logical case. I've noticed that few, if any actually bothered to rebutt the matter of projected ridership - other than some vague assurance that somehow if we don't build a subway it will get a) saturated in no time or b) be totally unsuccessful in attracting riders. Really?

ILuvTO:



Actually, both the Yonge Line and BD started off as streetcar (!) lines - and were converted into subways as they reached saturation point. Why is that such a logical approach no longer suffice? That we somehow have to jump right into subways?

AoD

AoD, I will be honest with you and admit that I was not aware that both lines started off as streetcar lines. With that said, considering the millions of dollars we will be spending on TC, would it not just be better to start building subways? How easy would it be to convert the eglinton line (as proposed) to an actual subway one day in the future? Would money need to be spent undoing what was done to setup the LRT?

 

[11th]

AoD, I will be honest with you and admit that I was not aware that both lines started off as streetcar lines. With that said, considering the millions of dollars we will be spending on TC, would it not just be better to start building subways? How easy would it be to convert the eglinton line (as proposed) to an actual subway one day in the future? Would money need to be spent undoing what was done to setup the LRT?

These are just some answers you'll get to your questions:
1) There will never be the density needed for subway (or grade-seperated route)
2) If there is, just build more LRT lines.
3) If insist on building/upgrading to subway, well, that's the next generation's problem.

 

[Tulse]

3) If insist on building/upgrading to subway, well, that's the next generation's problem.

And that is a completely reasonable answer -- if the density isn't there currently, wait until it is. There is plenty of precedent for converting surface rail to subway, as others have pointed out, and the part of Eglinton that is proposed to be underground is planned to be upgradable to subways if/when the time comes.

It makes absolutely no sense to buy a five bedroom house when one doesn't have kids, and it makes absolutely no sense for current taxpayers to foot the bill for building hugely over capacity.

 

[jje1000]

~nevar give up~

The fight's beginning in earnest- and it better not be using public money!

Doug Ford hatches public campaign to save mayor’s subway plan
ELIZABETH CHURCH
Globe and Mail Update
Published Monday, Feb. 13, 2012 7:41PM EST
Last updated Monday, Feb. 13, 2012 8:47PM EST

Councillor Doug Ford wants to rally the people of Toronto to save the mayor’s subway plans.

The Save our Subways campaign, or S.O.S. as he is calling it, is still in its infancy, but the Etobicoke councillor is predicting it will sway the McGuinty government to see things the mayor’s way – just as the voters of Oakville managed to halt construction on a power plant near their homes in the runup to this fall’s provincial election.

“McGuinty folded on that power plant there. Is he going to fold here?” Councillor Ford asked. “The mayor respects the will of council and always has. The council is not respecting the will of the people.

The plans for the public campaign come less than a week after Toronto’s subway-loving mayor suffered a stunning defeat of his transit plans at the hands of city councillors. Last week at a special transit meeting, a majority of councillors led by TTC chair Karen Stintz endorsed a plan that included street-level light rail on Eglinton Avenue east of the Don Valley and Finch Avenue West. It also created a expert panel to study the mayor’s campaign pledge for a subway expansion on Sheppard, with a report due next month.

The move runs counter to a deal signed last year by Premier Dalton McGuinty and the mayor to use $8.4-billion in provincial transit funding to bury the entire Eglinton Crosstown line, an agreement that failed to get the required support of council.

While the city waits for the next move from the province, Councillor Ford said it is time for the public to get involved. “We are going to have to start some organization like the lefties do,” he said, vowing to use e-mail, automated calls and “10 little Mrs. Jones,” making calls to drum up support.

The mayor’s office, he said, has received more calls supporting subways than any other issue and the polls show subways are what the public wants. Councillor Ford hopes to open an S.O.S. office on Eglinton Avenue East for starters and then move the focus to Sheppard and eventually Finch.

Political foes of the Ford administration may think they have scored a win, but Councillor Ford, his brother’s campaign manager during his campaign for mayor, said they are paving the way for more years for the mayor.

“You can’t win the city unless you win Scarborough and Etobicoke,” he said. After the council defeat, the councillor said, he was “high-fiving” his brother. “I told him, this is positive. This is a clear agenda. You’ve got it. It’s done.”

Councillor Adam Vaughan, a critic of Mayor Ford said, all the slogans in the world won’t address the $1-billion funding gap that exists for extending the Sheppard line.

“There are a billion reasons why we can’t give you a subway,” Mr. Vaughan said he would tell Scarborough residents. “It’s $1-billion in new taxes and $1-billion in new development charges that come from massive condominiums that sprout out everywhere.”

Mr. Vaughan said attempts to drum up support for subway projects – such as the mayor’s weekly community walks – will not change the transit plan endorsed by council that delivers transit to more residents in the east end. “They can walk around malls until they are blue in the face, council has made a decision,” he said. “There are folks all over Scarborough who are celebrating.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...gn-to-save-mayors-subway-plan/article2337143/


From the Sun, for a balanced diet.

Ford continues subway fight
BY DON PEAT, CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF
FIRST POSTED: MONDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2012 07:26 PM EST

TORONTO - Mayor Rob Ford is getting ready to send out an SOS to save his transit plan.

Ford and Councillor Doug Ford revealed Monday they plan on launching a Save Our Subways campaign to help push the province to support Ford’s transit plan over the Transit City light rail plans revived by city council last week.

The city’s executive committee voted Monday to have City Manager Joe Pennachetti come back with recommendations “on a process to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the Sheppard subway.”

Monday’s vote keeps former councillor Gordon Chong’s Sheppard subway push alive despite the fact city council voted last week to bring back LRT lines on Finch Ave. and street-level LRT on Eglinton Ave. E. in Scarborough rather than burying it underground. Council also created an expert panel, including Chong, to study transit options on Sheppard Ave. which could be the last step before reviving the Sheppard LRT.

Mayor Ford said no one he met over the weekend told him they want LRTs or streetcars.

“I don’t know who wants streetcars or LRTs,” Ford said.

Ford said he was optimistic Premier Dalton McGuinty would “think it through” and support his transit plan.

Councillor Ford said the “Save Our Subways” campaign would have an office in Scarborough to drive home the message.

“We’re going to have to start some organization like the lefties do,” Ford said.

The group would advocate for the Sheppard subway, for an underground LRT on Eglinton in Scarborough and “in the long-term future” a subway on Finch Ave.

Ford said suburban councillors who voted against the mayor’s transit plan are getting a rough ride from residents.

“They are getting the s--- kicked out of them right now,” he said. “If they were doing the right thing they wouldn’t be getting these phone calls.”

Councillor Adam Vaughan dismissed the notion the Sheppard subway plan was still alive.

“(Today’s vote) is a Hail Mary in a scrimmage game after the championship,” Vaughan said. “That train has left the station and they are sitting there buying a ticket for a train that no longer exists.”

Councillor David Shiner called the Sheppard subway the most important subway line in the city.

“It is time to stop thinking the only part of the city that deserves good rapid transit is the downtown,” Shiner said.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/13/ford-continues-subway-fight


The mayor's allies think we need a subway too! No matter the cost.

Mayor Ford’s executive pushes ahead with subway expansion dream
Published On Mon Feb 13 2012
RICHARD LAUTENS/TORONTO STAR
David Rider
Urban Affairs Bureau Chief

Mayor Rob Ford’s executive committee has voted to push ahead with plans for a Sheppard subway extension.

Monday’s vote came five days after a specially called meeting at which city council largely derailed Ford’s subway vision with a 25-18 endorsement of a return to a light rail plan.

While explicitly confirming support for a partially buried LRT on Eglinton Ave. and a surface line on Finch Ave., council stopped short of completely dashing Ford’s multi-billion-dollar dream of extending the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Town Centre primarily through private investment.

It authorized creation of an expert panel, including former mayor David Crombie, Ford’s point man on Sheppard subway financing Gordon Chong, and U of T transit expert Eric Miller, to report back on Sheppard options by March 21. They meet for the first time Friday.

Ford has dismissed council’s vote as “irrelevant” and is lobbying the public and the province to ignore it and proceed with his plan for a buried Eglinton LRT and a Sheppard subway.

Members of executive, after hearing Chong’s defence of his report advocating subways, and listening to visiting councillors attack him for relying heavily on a 20-year-old environmental assessment, sided firmly with Ford and subways.

“It is time to stop thinking the only part of the city that deserves good rapid transit is the downtown,” said Councillor David Shiner (Ward 24 Willowdale).

Norm Kelly (Ward 40 Scarborough Agincourt) said council is thinking small by only considering what it can finance from the province’s promised $8.4 billion.

“What we need in this debate is what Steve Jobs brought to Apple,” Kelly said.

Ford’s allies approved his motion to have city manager Joe Pennachetti report back with “recommendations on a process to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the Sheppard subway.”

Pennachetti is also tasked by council with reporting back on the findings of the expert panel, which includes LRT advocates.

Council Adam Vaughan (Ward 20 Trinity-Spadina) called Chong’s report fatally flawed, saying it relies on 20-year-old projections, most of which were proven wrong in a 2011 review by the TTC.

http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhal...pushes-ahead-with-subway-expansion-dream?bn=1

 

[BMO]

I have my sarcasm detector turned on but can't tell if you are teasing me.

I was being serious!

 

[BMO]

Actually, both the Yonge Line and BD started off as streetcar (!) lines - and were converted into subways as they reached saturation point. Why is that such a logical approach no longer suffice? That we somehow have to jump right into subways?

AoD

I don't think that's really fair...When the Yonge and Bloor lines were first started they were built as streetcars because buses weren't commercially available.

 

[jje1000]

I don't think that's really fair...When the Yonge and Bloor lines were first started they were built as streetcars because buses weren't commercially available.

I don't understand what you're getting at. It still proves that you can graduate from buses/streetcars>underground streetcar/subway, or in the modern world, buses>LRT>subway.

 

[GenerationW]

You can graduate from anything to subway, or from nothing as the northern portion of Spadina proves.

 

[Paleo]

AoD, I will be honest with you and admit that I was not aware that both lines started off as streetcar lines. With that said, considering the millions of dollars we will be spending on TC, would it not just be better to start building subways? How easy would it be to convert the eglinton line (as proposed) to an actual subway one day in the future? Would money need to be spent undoing what was done to setup the LRT?

Sheppard subway peak hour: 4,500+
Sheppard bus from Don Mills: ~1,500 pph
Yonge before conversion to subway: 12,000+ pph
Bloor-Danforth before conversion to subway: 9,000+ pph

And just for fun, the $14 million a year loser:
Spadina Vaughan subway (projected 5 years post opening): 2,200

There's a big leap between bus and subway. Even the Bloor-Danforth line had reduced service for many years due to budgetary concerns and that was starting from a base several times bigger than the Sheppard East bus.

Overbuilding Sheppard already costs the city $10 million a year. It will only get bigger if extended and as the current infrastructure ages.

 

[ILuvTO]

Sheppard subway peak hour: 4,500+
Sheppard bus from Don Mills: ~1,500 pph
Yonge before conversion to subway: 12,000+ pph
Bloor-Danforth before conversion to subway: 9,000+ pph

And just for fun, the $14 million a year loser:
Spadina Vaughan subway (projected 5 years post opening): 2,200

There's a big leap between bus and subway. Even the Bloor-Danforth line had reduced service for many years due to budgetary concerns and that was starting from a base several times bigger than the Sheppard East bus.

Overbuilding Sheppard already costs the city $10 million a year. It will only get bigger if extended and as the current infrastructure ages.

All fair points. Playing devils advocate, is it fair to say that Sheppard is a money loser today because it is more of stub than a real subway?

Agreed about the Vaughan extension. A complete waste. Enhanced GO service would have been a much better option. Subway money should be saved for Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

You can graduate from anything to subway, or from nothing as the northern portion of Spadina proves.

There's currently BRT services running from Downsview to Highway 7 in Vaughan, partially on it's own roadway.

BRT is nothing?