Transit City Plan

[dowlingm]

the problem is that the TTC can't be trusted not to pull the plug on the surface streetcars - look at how they don't want to run buses above the Eglinton subLRT.

 

[RedRocket191]

Lets say that we build the Queen subway with stations spaced every 850 metres or so (that's roughly the distance from Yonge to Sherborne, so well within what we're used to). Most people will transfer onto the subway, as they will know that subway will be twice as fast as the Queen Car.

Once the construction is finished there won't be the ridership to justify rebuilding the streetcar tracks. Like Bloor-Danforth, there will be little need for a surface bus. If we build it using deep level tubes that don't disrupt the suface, the Queen car has 25 years left until the next track rebuild. At that point, the ridership won't justify rebuilding the streetcar tracks.

A political decision to run the service as a heritage line would be its only hope.

I'm not saying that a Queen subway is good or bad... I'm saying it can't coexist with a Queen streetcar. To preserve the Queen car, we'll have to build the stations greater than 1 km apart and I don't see that flying in downtown Toronto.

 

[Edward Skira]

I'm not saying that a Queen subway is good or bad... I'm saying it can't coexist with a Queen streetcar. To preserve the Queen car, we'll have to build the stations greater than 1 km apart and I don't see that flying in downtown Toronto.

I'll gladly send the streetcars to Scarborough in return for a subway under Queen.

 

[nfitz]

The fairy to the islands is what makes it so amazing! No way I'd want a subway, joke or not : - )

You know, if we could get there by fairy, that would make an amazing tourist attraction!

 

[Le Gique]

-call it DRL or Queen subway, but for what length would it actually run along Queen?

Say I'm going from somewhere on the Queensway to Strachan to check out a *new* bike. Do I bail out at Ronces, go down into the tube and ride til Ossington, go up and walk over to Stron? -might not save me much time compared to staying on a still-creaking-along Queen car

-and what if the DRL follows the rail corridor instead, or dips south of queen into union to avoid having to build two interchange stations?

-could still be lots of fine-grained origin/destinations that aren't well served by the subway -- it's downtown, after all

-- politically, why try to sell a Queen subway? Y/B and StG stations and the lower YUS need relief -- that seems higher priority...

-on the other hand even if a DRL gets $upport and then is built, this does leave the problem of crappy service along Queen/King

-and i think i missed the thread where somebody tries to reconcile a DRL and this weird Waterfront West LRT plan (talk about a toss-up between local trips and longer haul)

 

[M II A II R II K]

As unsightly as it make look maybe an elevated line above Adelaide or Richmond or something.

 

[toraerach]

-on the other hand even if a DRL gets $upport and then is built, this does leave the problem of crappy service along Queen/King

The DRL built along the railway corridor connecting to the Y-U-S line at Union there would probably be two stations built on Queen (one Queen East, the other Queen West). This will dramatically affect the 501. Passengers coming from the East could switch to the subway sooner at the Queen East station, for example. It would break the 501 into smaller trips and provides a convenient location to break up the route into three new routes.

Eventually an express tunnel could be built between the two stations with stops at Queen and Osgoode with local downtown service on the surface.

Just some ideas I had - I don't know if they'd work or not in making the ride more bearable.

Remember though, Toronto has a love/hate relationship with the streetcar. It might be the most maligned, but also it's the Toronto streetcar. It would be fairly dangerous for any politician to scrap it altogether whether it makes sense to or not.

Back to Transit City though - do we know if any of the lines will be incorporated into the Blue Night Network like the 301/306?

 

[gei]

Tourists will leave?

"Honey, let's go to Toronto for the weekend!"
"No way Jose, I can't drive down Spadina, so we're not going anywhere!"

ya that makes sense.
Here's the thing, I've worked for the city and province in tourism and people that visit Toronto don't care whether they can drive from the CN Tower to the ROM. Our downtown is very compact and a large percentage of the attractions are within a walkable distance of eachother. Tourists know that and I don't think I ever once spoke to one who had complaints about traffic. You know why? Tourists like to experience new things. Riding the subway or the streetcar is like an adventure for them. It's a fantastic opportunity to see the city in a whole other way and they jump at it.

You also make it sound like tourism and driving go hand in hand. Well, try driving in Paris or London as a foreigner. You'd be hard pressed to find a tourist doing that, and those two cities are doing quite well for themselves. Also, don't you think people know about traffic? They tend to come from places that have traffic too. it's not something that's unique to Toronto.

is this just what you're assuming? cause every tourist i know has driven downtown... they even drive from place to place and pay for parking (ie from harbourfront to y&d square). get rid of the roads and we get rid of the tourists and all our suburban visitors.

 

[drum118]

Lets say that we build the Queen subway with stations spaced every 850 metres or so (that's roughly the distance from Yonge to Sherborne, so well within what we're used to). Most people will transfer onto the subway, as they will know that subway will be twice as fast as the Queen Car.

Once the construction is finished there won't be the ridership to justify rebuilding the streetcar tracks. Like Bloor-Danforth, there will be little need for a surface bus. If we build it using deep level tubes that don't disrupt the suface, the Queen car has 25 years left until the next track rebuild. At that point, the ridership won't justify rebuilding the streetcar tracks.

A political decision to run the service as a heritage line would be its only hope.

I'm not saying that a Queen subway is good or bad... I'm saying it can't coexist with a Queen streetcar. To preserve the Queen car, we'll have to build the stations greater than 1 km apart and I don't see that flying in downtown Toronto.

Even if you built stations 1k apart, not enough ridership to support the stations in too many places.

The Queen line would be long haul and bypass various points.

At the same time, if you got 2 good legs, walking is not a real issue. If you got a walker or need a cane to use to walk to the stop, it becomes a chore to get there in the first place. This gets total ignore by planners.

As I have said in the past, Spadina, Bathurst, Dufferin Roncesville, Yonge, Woodbine and University are the only real trip generators for a Queen line. Lansdowne, Coxwell, Pape, Broadview could be use as stops. To please the Beech area, you would need one at Nevile and one mid area. You could put a stop somewhere between Yonge and the Don and most likely be River St. it will service the West Donlands area that is being built now that will become a trip generator in time.

At the same time, you still need surface service to provide service in between the subway stops. I would still use streetcars as it will support the street better than what happen on the Danforth when the subway was built. It will maintain the Toronto history.

When it comes to rebuild Queen Street, move the tracks to the curb and kick the parking off it. Then there will most likely not that great number of them then in the first place.

 

[adma]

is this just what you're assuming? cause every tourist i know has driven downtown... they even drive from place to place and pay for parking (ie from harbourfront to y&d square). get rid of the roads and we get rid of the tourists and all our suburban visitors.

Which certainly reflects something about the kind of tourists you, yourself, tend to befriend. Of course, given that your taste runs to appallingly vulgar suburban McMansions and the like, maybe we should expect no less...

 

[BobBob]

Tourists (sensible ones, anyway) like to go by the old "when in Rome, do as the Romans" philosophy. Otherwise, what's the point of tourism?

In Venice, they don't have a single street for cars, you know. You have to leave your car outside the city. I hear tourism is doing okay down there. In fact, they do nothing else.

Saying we need to make our city more car-friendly to cater to tourists who drive cars makes absolutely no sense. If anything, making our city more transit-oriented would only make it more attractive to tourists.

 

[jn_12]

is this just what you're assuming? cause every tourist i know has driven downtown... they even drive from place to place and pay for parking (ie from harbourfront to y&d square). get rid of the roads and we get rid of the tourists and all our suburban visitors.

If you read anything I wrote you'd know that I worked for the city and province in Tourism. Not only did I spend a summer working in the InfoTOgo truck talking to tourists (Literally all I did was talk to tourists 8-10 hours a day almost everyday from May until September) I also worked for the province's tourism policy office. Essentially with the people who look after the entire province's tourism industry. I've seen stats, surveys, anecdotes, etc (I guarantee you more information about the tourism industry than you'll ever know).

So am I assuming? does it look like I'm making assumptions? The one tourist you know might be an idiot and want to drive everywhere, but they're very much beyond the norm. The most common question we got in the InfoTOgo booth was "how long does it take to walk to ____." I could probably count on my hands the number of people who asked for driving directions within the downtown. The only people who asked for driving directions were those wanting to go to the zoo sometime during their visit, and even then they would often ask if there was an efficient way of getting there rather than going by car.

Not only do tourists want to enjoy our city by experiencing it completely (TTC, walking), they don't want to spend their time getting lost or finding parking. There's a reason why there are few parking lots around our tourism venues, and its because demand just isn't there.

To say that there is a direct correlation between giving road to transit and losing tourists is preposterous at best (if that's what you're getting at, which I assume so, since this is a Transit City thread)

 

[W. K. Lis]

Tourists would prefer to have the venues within walking distance. If they can walk to someplace, the better.
Second choice would be if it is near rapid transit. Tourists do not want to take a bus to a venue. If there is a choice between a bus or car to get to a venue, the car would usually win. The bus is considered slow and infrequent. How did you get to the Ontario Science Centre or the Zoo, the last time you visited them?
When I am in a "foreign" city (ie. Montreal, New York, Warsaw, etc.), I would walk first and then I would use the rapid transit in that city. I have not riden the buses in New York or Warsaw. In Montreal, I have been on a bus and only because I had some time to waste. (Montreal is considering a tramway to replace the bus that I took.)

 

[adma]

I'm wondering if tourist transit habits are subtly changing, or have potential to change, in the transit-pass era, i.e. the freedom to hop on and hop off a bus and onto a subway, etc. to go any which way and not worry about extra fare.

That's the way I travelled in NYC last time--lots of walking; but, using buses and subway for quick shuttles to various locations, all on a day's Metrocard. And not least because you can see so much, municipal buses are an underrated means of travel/transport in NYC.

Then again, for the sorts of tourists who are unaccustomed to using public transit back home, or who can't get used to sightseeing in a bus without a tour guide barking out sights to see, it might be a hard stretch...

 

[Dan416]

When I was in Europe many moons ago, I travelled the cities by public transit. Cities like Prague, Vienna, Munich, Krakow. Of course I'm used to taking public transit. I think it's a great way to get to know a city.

As for the DRL, I really believe it should go the Queen route. Where it should divert away from Queen and head for B-D I'm not sure. On my Google map I had my Queen line do most of Queen and head up a little before the lake got in the way.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...499509425181132370.00044a0285de24508b14e&z=11