Transit City Plan

[Second_in_pie]

But where do you get the near $3 billion or so this will cost? There's only about $1 billion in the kitty.

$3 billion perhaps if you decide to tunnel underneath a wide Sheppard avenue, adding underground bus bays and 4 exits to every station. There's no reason at all that a Sheppard subway should cost over $300 million/km, that's been stated clearly several times.

 

[nfitz]

$3 billion perhaps if you decide to tunnel underneath a wide Sheppard avenue, adding underground bus bays and 4 exits to every station. There's no reason at all that a Sheppard subway should cost over $300 million/km, that's been stated clearly several times.

And yet that is how much is does cost, so pretending that subway doesn't cost over $250 million a kilometre is fiction. Cutting an extra $10 million for a station every kilometre or so is clearly not going to cut the cost of subway construction much.

 

[lafard]

Do you honestly think, that in this era of "stop the gravy train", McGuinty would unceremoniously dump another 2 billion dollars on Toronto?

Political suicide everywhere else in Ontario where the perception already is that there is a giant pump in the basement of Queens Park, running on the mortgaging of Ontario's future, dumping gravy out the window onto Toronto soil.

 

[leopetr]

What's the difference between RTES and Transit City's EA?

The difference is that the RTES EA only considered status quo and subways. Light rail wasn't an option. It was stacked in favour of subways.

 

[Filip]

The difference is that the RTES EA only considered status quo and subways. Light rail wasn't an option. It was stacked in favour of subways.

And Transit City EA's considered only LRT... Let's be honest here.. lol

 

[quicksilver]

Whether the Sheppard line of Transit City goes ahead as LRT or a subway, I think the more important aspect is that it travel all the way to Markham Rd, preferably Morningside Rd, before looping back to Scarborough Town Centre. Instead of just linking another mall, the city has the opportunity to connect two important educational institutions in the Scarborough campus of the University of Toronto and Centennial College.

 

[gweed123]

But where do you get the near $3 billion or so this will cost? There's only about $1 billion in the kitty.

Extend the subway to Vic Park, do the grade separation at Agincourt, and build the ROW from Agincourt to Morningside, but run buses down it for the interim. This accomplishes many of the same goals as the SELRT: avoiding the bottleneck along Sheppard from Vic Park to Don Mills stn, get grade separation at the Agincourt GO (which was needed anyway), get an LRT-ready ROW for when the upgrade is needed, and you save money by not having to purchase new rolling stock or build a multi-million dollar vehicle storage facility.

None of the construction contracts would have to be significantly altered. From Agincourt to Morningside, it's basically the exact same construction, except you aren't laying down the rails (you even could if you wanted to, buses run along streetcar tracks all the time). And from Don Mills to Vic Park, well you're tunneling from Don Mills to Consumers anyways. In fact, doing it this way may actually save money compared to the original proposal. You could put whatever is left into putting in queue jump lanes at key intersections on the rest of Sheppard between Agincourt and Vic Park.

Because let's face it, east of Agincourt, the demand that the SELRT will experience is certainly in the low end of LRT. Certainly nothing that BRT (using either artics or just regular buses) couldn't easily handle, especially with their own ROW.

 

[quicksilver]

let's face it, east of Agincourt, the demand that the SELRT will experience is certainly in the low end of LRT. Certainly nothing that BRT (using either artics or just regular buses) couldn't easily handle, especially with their own ROW.

Buses for Scarborough you say. Hmm, sounds like a familiar tune; give a dog a bone. Scarborough's population in 2006 was essentially the same as the other old boroughs of North York and Toronto. It's density is very close to North York's. Guess which is growing the fastest?

 

[leopetr]

And Transit City EA's considered only LRT... Let's be honest here.. lol

They considered subways and BRT as well. Both are mentioned and rejected based on ridership being over the BRT maximum and below the subway minimum.

If you actually read the RTES, you will notice that it doesn't mention the existence of LRT or BRT at all whatsoever.

BTW, I'm pretty sure that the RTES isn't an actual EA. An EA includes things like impact on waterways, archaeological sites, etc.

 

[gweed123]

Buses for Scarborough you say. Hmm, sounds like a familiar tune; give a dog a bone. Scarborough's population in 2006 was essentially the same as the other old boroughs of North York and Toronto. It's density is very close to North York's. Guess which is growing the fastest?

The demand on Sheppard east of Agincourt is under 5000 pphpd, well within the range of BRT.

 

[leopetr]

Whether the Sheppard line of Transit City goes ahead as LRT or a subway, I think the more important aspect is that it travel all the way to Markham Rd, preferably Morningside Rd, before looping back to Scarborough Town Centre. Instead of just linking another mall, the city has the opportunity to connect two important educational institutions in the Scarborough campus of the University of Toronto and Centennial College.

I realize that transit maps do not have to represent geography, but I'll mention that UofT Scarborough is south of Ellesmere just in case. Two lines with an interchange would serve Scarborough much better than a loop.

 

[leopetr]

Buses for Scarborough you say. Hmm, sounds like a familiar tune; give a dog a bone. Scarborough's population in 2006 was essentially the same as the other old boroughs of North York and Toronto. It's density is very close to North York's. Guess which is growing the fastest?

The demand on Sheppard east of Agincourt is under 5000 pphpd, well within the range of BRT.

And this would be why Viva and Zum got new rolling stock separate from the regular bus fleet. BRT requires distinctive rolling stock at a minimum. People like shiny.

 

[gweed123]

And this would be why Viva and Zum got new rolling stock separate from the regular bus fleet. BRT requires distinctive rolling stock at a minimum. People like shiny.

Tell that to people in Ottawa. Aside from the fact that they're artics (which are now also running on some non-Transitway routes), there's no difference between a Transitway bus and a regular route bus. The idea that BRT NEEDS to have separate rolling stock with a different look is a branding/marketing thing, nothing more. It's far from a requirement. And if you're really so concerned about it, my suggestion would be this: take some buses, get out a can of paint. Problem solved.

 

[quicksilver]

The demand on Sheppard east of Agincourt is under 5000 pphpd, well within the range of BRT.

A number of technology comparisons will show you that BRT and LRT capacities converge at the lower end. The decision is about promoting transit use and building for the future. In both of these cases LRT wins hands down. Why would you want to create the need to transfer at Agincourt when everybody bitches that Transit City requires a technology transfer at Don Mills? Why not build the tracks now while construction is happening, rather than riding inflation up and disrupting commuters later? Your reasoning has more holes than my old socks. Geez, give your eastern cousins some respect.

 

[gweed123]

A number of technology comparisons will show you that BRT and LRT capacities converge at the lower end. The decision is about promoting transit use and building for the future. In both of these cases LRT wins hands down.

Except that for ridership numbers similar to what the eastern portion of Sheppard is to expect, BRT is a much more economical choice. Isn't that the whole argument for LRT over HRT? That it's cheaper to build and run? Well guess what, the same argument works for BRT vs LRT, especially with the predicted ridership demands that we're talking about here.

Why would you want to create the need to transfer at Agincourt when everybody bitches that Transit City requires a technology transfer at Don Mills?

Because that's actually a logical transfer point? It's not like we're adding in an extra transfer point, just moving it further back to a point where it actually makes sense. Don Mills is a very arbitrary transfer point, Agincourt has the potential to be a very good transit hub. How can you say that creating a transfer at Don Mills is ok but creating a transfer at Agincourt isn't?

Why not build the tracks now while construction is happening, rather than riding inflation up and disrupting commuters later?

That's what I said. Build the ROW at least, possibly even with the tracks in, but run buses instead of LRT trains, in order to: a) save on operational costs, b) allow for a decent extension of the subway to Vic Park. Then, when more money is available, extend the subway to STC, and create an intermodal hub at Agincourt, consisting of the subway, GO train, and LRT. I should clarify that I mean building the ROW east of Agincourt, and just do queue jump lanes west of Agincourt.

Your reasoning has more holes than my old socks. Geez, give your eastern cousins some respect.

And the reasoning of sending an LRT that barely even has the ridership to justify LRT out to suburban never never land is a rock solid reasoning? Yeah, ok. At least what I'm proposing is some sort of compromise, that would still allow for the LRT eventually, but is a much more economical option, and doesn't castrate the Sheppard subway for the next 50+ years.