Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

My take on all of this:

1) Anything that's in Phase 2 of TC (including stuff that has been deferred, like the western portion of Eglinton, or Finch West, or the small SELRT extension) is toast. Finito. Gone. The combination of Ford and probably Hudak is going to chop everything that is choppable. Now, having said that...

2) It is almost a given that the immediately funded projects will proceed in some shape or form. The SELRT, the worst of them all, is likely going ahead as planned. Eglinton might see further chopping, possibly coupled with a technology switch (exclusively an HRT tunnel from Jane to Don Mills, which wouldn't be a big stretch, considering the entire tunnel is being built to subway specs anyway). Probably won't happen, but it could make for an interesting battle ground. Either way, something is being built there.

3) The real toss-up is the fate of the SLRT/extension to STC. The plan for this one is much less solidified than for Eglinton or Sheppard. I think that if Ford dabbles in anything transit-related at all (aside from service cuts, I'm talking purely about infrastructure here), it'll be this. Scarborough was one of his major hotbeds of support. If he wants re-election, he needs to deliver a subway. Sheppard is out, so that leaves B-D to STC.

4) The clock is ticking. Whatever is not significantly underway by Oct 2011 is up for the chopping block (or at least up for serious debate). Unless it's a project that Ford himself specifically endorses (ie the B-D extension to STC), it's fair game. But if Ford wants it, a Conservative gov't isn't likely to step on the toes of another Conservative. The question is not IF transit will be cut, it's by how much. This is of course assuming a Hudak win, which of course I'm sincerely hoping isn't the case. If the Liberals manage to change the tide of public opinion in the next year, it will be business as usual on the transit front.

5) Regarding the whole issue of whether or not this election was about transit, I'll offer my point of view: This election was about Transportation. In specific, it was about cars vs transit, suburbs vs urban. Everyone at centre or left of centre wanted to make it about transit. Most people right of centre wanted to make it about keeping the suburban way of life (I want my house, a nice drive into work, and my tax dollar going as far as I can stretch it). It was me vs we. And me won.

 

[lafard]

The SRT extension is indeed a question mark. A BD extension would be at least 6, and likely 8, years out, so bus replacement of the SRT is pretty much guaranteed for a couple years no matter what happens.

It depends on what Malvern wants. SRT extension to Malvern provides much more benefit to most of the area north and east of STC than a subway extension to STC. Political pressure from Markham for extension might be possible too. If there's activism - and this is one of those cases where I suspect there would be, extending the SRT is simple and tangible - then the LRT extension will probably proceed. If not, then subway.

Or, the original possibility to buy Vancouver some new trains and run their newer Mark I stock on SRT. That sets back the crisis for a few more years.

 

[LAz]

Okay those saying Transit City is going ahead as is are clearly deluded, but how does that equate to "evil satan"???

Some people just destroy the pro-subway sides credibility (as some LRTistas do on the pro-LRT side as well).

Well, transit city was designed to now allow for future subway expansion. Hence why I call it satan's plan. In all honesty, one must hate the city to want it.

And quite frankly, we need subway radicals. If there can be tram radicals then there can be subway ones too. You are not a subway radical. You're in the middle. Hence we need some extreme views, as there are extreme pro-tram views. It helps balance the discussion.

Sheppard is out, so that leaves B-D to STC.

His election propaganda was on extending sheppard, though. So perhaps we can see at least some extension.

It was me vs we. And me won.

I thought that the Me side won ever since the 1980s, when the metropolitan regional government became redundant because it could not control development anymore.

 

[nfitz]

Well, transit city was designed to now allow for future subway expansion.

I disagree, it wasn't designed for expansion now, it was designed for future subway expansion

Hence why I call it satan's plan. In all honesty, one must hate the city to want it.

Why are you opposed to expansion now?

 

[LAz]

I disagree, it wasn't designed for expansion now, it was designed for future subway expansion

Future meaning down the road once upon a day way way way off, perhaps when we're retired or down a couple meters bellow ground.

Why are you opposed to expansion now?

For the many same reasons as before.
Just imagine how much faster a subway is on sheppard than a silly tram?!

 

[nfitz]

Future meaning down the road once upon a day way way way off, perhaps when we're retired or down a couple meters bellow ground.

If you were worried about transit not being built until you were retired, you shouldn't have voted for Ford!

 

[LAz]

If you were worried about transit not being built until you were retired, you shouldn't have voted for Ford!

Man said he wants subways.

Miller said he wants trams.




Simple as that.

 

[doady]

Sheppard subway [NYCC-SCC] (50M riders/y, 12 km):
4.1M rides/y/km

Sheppard East LRT (20M riders, 14 km):
1.4M rides/y/km

Jane LRT (19M riders, 17 km):
1.1M rides/y/km

Eglinton LRT (52M riders, 31 km):
1.7M rides/y/km

Malvern LRT (22M riders, 15 km):
1.5M rides/y/km

Finch West LRT (24M riders, 18 km):
1.3M rides/y/km

 

[SlickFranky]

Man said he wants subways.

Miller said he wants trams.




Simple as that.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Paleo]

You may be surprised.

Transit is the #1 priority for Torontonians, even ahead of taxes and other important electorate issues. If Ford, or even Hudak, want to assure their political future, they'll have to bring something to the table. The tables have turned massively, we aren't in the 90s anymore. Transit is a focal issue that needs to be addressed for Toronto to be able to survive the future.

It will not. I'm willing to bet on it (and already have).

I guess that's why Sarah Thomson is mayor-elect. Oh wait.

 

[SlickFranky]

Well, transit city was designed to now allow for future subway expansion. Hence why I call it satan's plan. In all honesty, one must hate the city to want it.

And quite frankly, we need subway radicals. If there can be tram radicals then there can be subway ones too. You are not a subway radical. You're in the middle. Hence we need some extreme views, as there are extreme pro-tram views. It helps balance the discussion.

You need to take a Ritalin...you're making that other guy (Filip?) look rational. There are no tram radicals here. And if there were, that would be a poor justification for ranting like a lunatic. If you don't happen to have Ritalin or some suitable sedative please see a doctor. Print out a single page of your nonsense and he will gladly write the prescription.

 

[cacruden]

Is the LRT tunnel (Eglington) and LRT vehicles similar to Bombardier ART Mark II vehicles? I road the Kuala Lumpur LRT last week, and it was a subway like tunnel running the Bombardier ART Mark II vehicles and I was actually surprised that it was fairly fast and efficient. If it is similar in design - and saves money - I am fine with it for Eglington. I would actually prefer more lines like that than less subway lines with the same amount of money. If they take the savings and invest it in other lines - it will be better.

 

[Asterix]

Oh, so now it's not too expensive to tunnel?!
Funny how the tramsit city guys live in their own lie - supposedly it is too costly but their central thing is a big tunnel.


If one makes such a long tunnel then it should be a metro tunnel, not a tram tunnel. Ford is the man to castrate Tramsit City in its place, and I take my hat off to that.
Instead of seeing trams enter and exit the eglinton tunnel, we have a possibility to not see subways.

Just curious, are you deliberately not reading and understanding what was posted or is it unintentional ignorance?

The tunnel is about 12km of the Eglinton line. The entire Eglinton line is approaching 30km. Those kms outside of the tunnel are to be built a heck of a lot cheaper as surface LRT than they would be as subway.

What you seem to be arguing is that they should make the tunneled portion subway, despite the marginal increase in capacity and speed it would provide, while basically neglecting the majority of the planned line that lies outside the tunnel.

That's one of the big advantages of the LRT plan rather than 'subways or nothing' - you can get high speed, high capacity running in underground sections while still being able to provide improved surface running service for a greatly reduced price.

Since forecast demand comes nowhere near justifying subway level capacity on the surface sections of the line, surely a fiscally responsible person would not demand gravy train spending to serve those areas.

Oh wait, I'll accept that you have far better skills and knowledge at determining future transit demand on the Eglinton line than trained, experienced experts and therefore your presumed conclusion that demand will be greater than can be handled by surface LRT running in trains is much more accurate.

Making it a subway from the get go will fully castrate any hope that tramsit city trolls had to ruin toronto - afterall, they deserve nothing of their plan to be built because they did not want citizen participation. One can not do something by just ramming through one's agenda regardless of the consequences. The consequence is this election result, and the great result of NOTHING being built of TC. This is a great time right now. I am so happy, and you all should be too.

Gee, when your argument depends on consistently misnaming the plan (whether you like it or not, it is 'Transit City', not 'Tramsit City' or 'Transfer City' or whatever terms you like to use to denigrate the plan as if repeating it often enough makes it true) or by calling those who disagree with you 'trolls' who are out to 'ruin Toronto', one wonders why there is any point in trying to have a rational discussion with you. You are obviously completely dead-set in your views and proud of the fact that no amount of logic or facts to the contrary could ever dissuade you.

Throwing in your supposed glee at having hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on work already completed on TC only to have it canceled and not a single transit improvement delivered to the citizens of Toronto is just icing on your stance.

 

[nfitz]

Sheppard subway [NYCC-SCC] (50M riders/y, 12 km):
4.1M rides/y/km

Sheppard East LRT (20M riders, 14 km):
1.4M rides/y/km

Jane LRT (19M riders, 17 km):
1.1M rides/y/km

Eglinton LRT (52M riders, 31 km):
1.7M rides/y/km

Malvern LRT (22M riders, 15 km):
1.5M rides/y/km

Finch West LRT (24M riders, 18 km):
1.3M rides/y/km

The problem with this, is that the Sheppard subway has only about 14M riders/year (daily riders is 47,700 multiplied by rule-of-thumb of 300). While surely the ridership will grow somewhat if they built the entire 14 km route to Scarborough Centre (not sure where 12 km comes from), it doesn't seem conceivable that the ridership would near quadruple, given many of the riders of the new segment are already changing to buses at Don Mills.

 

[sixrings]

If I had a request Id stretch the EGLINON Underground portion from Royal York to Victoria Park.... On Sheppard Id start the SERT at Victoria Park. Finally connect the bloor line to STC and extend it one stop further to connect with SERT