Transit City 2, suggestions/fantasies for the future

[Second_in_pie]

Ok, well I'd just like to put out everything that I think should get done in Toronto (Mainly) and label it as TC II worthy or not.

DRL: It seems like at the rate things are going, the DRL is going to be built during or even after TC II. Hopefully it will get built before, but either way it probably won't be built as a TC II Project.

Queen Subway: This is even further than the DRL, so no.

Dufferin: A busway or LRT on Dufferin would probably be a worthy TTC Project. I'm currently unsure as to whether it should be BRT or LRT, as LRT might be cutting too close to the Spadina Subway in the north. Either way, Dufferin needs better transit. I think it'd be in TC II

Victoria Park: It has a reasonable density, but it might be a bit too close to Don Mills for it to actually be LRT. I'm unsure whether it would be in TC II.

Danforth Road/McCowan: Definitely needs BRT, from Main St. Station up to STC and probably up into Markham. I think it deserves BRT in TC II.

Kingston Road: Should have LRT up to Highway 2 RT in Durham Region. Probably will appear in a Transit City II

Kipling LRT: I'm not sure whether it should be in this Transit City instead of Jane or not. It would certainly provide a strong link through Etobicoke. It definitely deserves to be in TC II.

Lawrence LRT: It might not make so much sense since it is so close to Eglinton, but it's officially out there.

Kennedy LRT: Running from Kennedy Station all the way up into Markham, it would definitely provide a lot of connections through Toronto and Markham.

That's all I can think of. I'll be that Miller and Giambrone already have Transit City Two allllll figured out and ready to go. It's too bad they don't believe in Subways though... The city would do well with just one or two new lines.

 

[kettal]

TC2 Proposals:

Lawrence East. This is interlined with Eglinton through the Eglinton tunnel, then goes north via Don Mills (or maybe Leslie) and East along Lawrence from there.

St. Clair West extended to Kipling via Dundas.

I don't believe the rumours about Kipling almost making the cut. Toronto Official Plan doesn't even designate Kipling as a mixed-use avenue. Just a suburban arterial.

 

[Epi]

Every major east west street should get a subway, from Etobicoke to Scarborough. Anything less is sacrilege.
Every major north south street should get a subway, too. Anything less is sacrilege.

All LRTs and trams should be dismantled, and replaced with subway.

All subways have to be underground. Anything not currently underground should be put underground.

Passenger car lanes should be reduced to 1 lane in each direction on all major streets.

All major streets should have double-width bike lanes in each direction, with drink dispensers at every km.

Etc.

What a horrible idea. You completely forgot about the diagonal subways which connect everything in the grid even better!!! Who cares if we have to expropriate, just DO IT.

 

[waterloowarrior]

TC2 Proposals:

Lawrence East. This is interlined with Eglinton through the Eglinton tunnel, then goes north via Don Mills (or maybe Leslie) and East along Lawrence from there.

St. Clair West extended to Kipling via Dundas.

I don't believe the rumours about Kipling almost making the cut. Toronto Official Plan doesn't even designate Kipling as a mixed-use avenue. Just a suburban arterial.

Most of Finch, Don Mills, Jane, a big part of Eglinton, and the Malvern Lines aren't designated as Avenues either.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Will Transfer City 2 be a social program or an actual rapid transit plan?

If the city were really serious about Transfer City being a social program, they would have done some serious spatial analysis and simulation to determine the social effects of building a higher order transit line in a neighbourhood. You would think that a $10B transit plan would have involved spending a couple thousand here or there on this sort of analysis.

 

[W. K. Lis]

My arbitrary cutoff might be something like 4-6 floors for a low(ish) rise, whereas a mid rise might be like 8-10 stories or something.
However, a stair-stepped mid-rise can look very lowish rise if done properly. From street level, you may only seen 5 or 6 floors, because the floors above that are out of view, stair-stepped in such a way to prevent shadowing.

---

Well, maybe a true low-rise would be 4 floors. So some may call that building in that picture a short mid-rise, but others may consider it a tall low-rise.

I guess my main point though is that buildings of various sizes can be very appropriate with certain developments, and limiting designs to only low-rises is probably not warranted. One not insignificant consideration here is that developers often don't like building very low-rises anyway, because they are not cost effective. The higher they go, the more profit they make, and nothing speeds up development like the lure of profits. The good news is that effective planning can mold this development in such a way that the developers get their profits, without us being saddled with rectangular boxy mid-rises and high-rises, while still offering higher density than pure low-rise developments could offer.

I would call a low-rise any building that can be reached by an fire truck's aerial ladder, about 7 floors. Elevators would be required for any building higher than 3 or 4 floors. A loft building would be less since the floors are higher.

Mid-rise would be above that, but no more than double, about 14 (depending on floor height again).

Hi-rise would be above 14 floors.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If the city were really serious about Transfer City being a social program, they would have done some serious spatial analysis and simulation to determine the social effects of building a higher order transit line in a neighbourhood. You would think that a $10B transit plan would have involved spending a couple thousand here or there on this sort of analysis.

Streetcars are being added to priority neighbourhoods...what more needs to be studied? The effects are numerous and wonderful!

 

[Amphibius]

I think the TTC already has an idea of which routes it'll convert to Transit City lines next based on their Blue Night route selections:

Islington seems favored over Kipling as a priority N-S arterial. It along with VP-Warden, Wilson-York Mills-Ellesmere (I'm assuming it'll terminate at UTS), Mall Loop/Hwy 27, a East Toronto zig-zag line based on the 322 (?), Steeles East, Finch East, Lawrence East, Lawrence West, McCowan, Dufferin and one or possibly two innercity crosstowns (Queen and/or Dundas-College-Gerrard) are likely what Phase II onwards will comprise.

 

[xtremesniper]

Before Transit City II gets going, the GTA (not just Toronto) has to focus on transit-oriented development (pedestrians, transit, bicycles) and get away from building everything for the automobile. We have to make the 905 and the outer fringes of the 415 more walkable. That means a higher density, not the high density of high-rises of separate zoned uses, but mixed-use low-rises.

Definitely. I'm tired of seeing new plazas go up on huuuuuuge pieces of land, only to have a handful of stores go in and 85% of that space being dedicated to cars. And to get there by walking you have to travel across the desert of a parking lot.

Stores need to be facing the street, with parking behind and with doors on both sides for easy access for both pedestrians and car drivers.

The new development at Woodbine and Hwy 7 almost got it right, but failed when they locked their street-side doors up and make you walk around the building to enter any of the stores.

 

[Eug]

I would call a low-rise any building that can be reached by an fire truck's aerial ladder, about 7 floors. Elevators would be required for any building higher than 3 or 4 floors. A loft building would be less since the floors are higher.

Mid-rise would be above that, but no more than double, about 14 (depending on floor height again).

Hi-rise would be above 14 floors.

FWIW, one city planning report has 4 floors as low-rise (which I think is too short for a maximum height across the city), and mid-rise going up to 12 floors, with the height not exceeding the road width.

Since Kingston Road was mentioned, this is an example from the city's tentative Kingston Road plan, with allowances in this area for an 11 floor midrise with setbacks. Note the road width is 36 m, and so is the building height, but if you're walking on the sidewalk next to the building, you only see 4 floors because the 5th floor is set back out of the line of sight.

You'll also note the dedicated transit lanes in the middle. It's drawn as LRT/streetcar, but the initial TTC projection would have it as BRT. However, BRT lanes are upgradable to LRT/streetcar, so they've drawn it that way.

Unfortunately, as I said before, the TTC has no monies targeted for this any time soon. The plan will be in place, but it's likely that such TTC changes wouldn't happen until some buildings go up.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think the TTC already has an idea of which routes it'll convert to Transit City lines next based on their Blue Night route selections:

Islington seems favored over Kipling as a priority N-S arterial. It along with VP-Warden, Wilson-York Mills-Ellesmere (I'm assuming it'll terminate at UTS), Mall Loop/Hwy 27, a East Toronto zig-zag line based on the 322 (?), Steeles East, Finch East, Lawrence East, Lawrence West, McCowan, Dufferin and one or possibly two innercity crosstowns (Queen and/or Dundas-College-Gerrard) are likely what Phase II onwards will comprise.

Looking at the lines just on the map, I noticed the big hole on Lawrence between Yonge and Don Mills. I would like to see a Lawrence LRT, both east and west, that would bridge that gap on its own private right-of-way between Bayview and Park Lane. However, I would suspect that some neighbours may be for or against any bridging of that gap.

 

[kettal]

Looking at the lines just on the map, I noticed the big hole on Lawrence between Yonge and Don Mills. I would like to see a Lawrence LRT, both east and west, that would bridge that gap on its own private right-of-way between Bayview and Park Lane. However, I would suspect that some neighbours may be for or against any bridging of that gap.

Not only will the Bridle Path protest it, it wouldn't make a lick of sense. Nobody in this very low-density area would be seen in anything less than a Mercedes.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Islington seems favored over Kipling as a priority N-S arterial. It along with VP-Warden, Wilson-York Mills-Ellesmere (I'm assuming it'll terminate at UTS), Mall Loop/Hwy 27, a East Toronto zig-zag line based on the 322 (?), Steeles East, Finch East, Lawrence East, Lawrence West, McCowan, Dufferin and one or possibly two innercity crosstowns (Queen and/or Dundas-College-Gerrard) are likely what Phase II onwards will comprise.

I was going to make the same comment, you beat me to it . Islington is a bit more diverse than Kipling is at the moment.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Not only will the Bridle Path protest it, it wouldn't make a lick of sense. Nobody in this very low-density area would be seen in anything less than a Mercedes.

Same could be said about Forest Hill, but the 512 St. Clair runs at the bottom and Eglinton LRT will be running through it.

EMS may want to be able to use ambulances on the right-of-way to reach Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre. If one gets a heart attack reading about the recession, those residents may want that for themselves.

Map It would run through York University's Glendon Campus.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The "Bridal Path"? Where'd you get that map?