Toronto's Identity

[JasonParis]

MisterF just nailed it.

 

[Cancerous]

No...you are.

Firstly, you still don’t know what my opinion is regarding Toronto’s identity, I never told you whether I think there is or isn’t one.
I was merely asking a question, not suggesting anything - no need to get defensive.
Secondly, Did you not say that there wasn’t enough time for the city to acquire an identity? You seem to have changed your mind in the three hours between your posts? If you don’t think you did, then tell us what that identity is.

What I'm suggesting, is that you are wasting too much time defining Toronto by what it isn't, rather than what it is.

An identity is probably one of the most important things about a city, so, when I’m trying to define Toronto by its identity, I am defining it by what it IS, not by what it isn’t.
Even if we decide that Toronto doesn’t have an identity, it still IS part of its definition.

Toronto occupies its own unique place on the planet. No other city inhabits exactly the same geographical space. in addition, the city has its own origins, history and composition. Toronto is not Paris, nor is Paris Toronto.

… ?!
Obviously every city in the world occupies a unique place on the planet and no other city inhabits the same geographical space, unless it was on top of it!
Does that constitute “identity” from your perspective?

Montreal is hardly unique for the language spoken there

I’m not sure why you’re trying to negate me on every single occasion just for the hell of it; it’s a bit obvious.
No, Montreal is not the only city in the world where French is spoken, however, it’s the only major one in North America that does so, which makes it an oddity and provides it with a unique and distinguishing feature. Also, language brings along with it a whole different culture and society.

Toronto has a British influenced old city with a North American skyscraper core and Ontario style suburbs

The British influence on cities is present all over the British colonies of North America in Canada and the United States. In fact, it’s even evident on some buildings in Hong Kong. Just by reading that description, I instantly think of New York, Boston, Sydney, Melbourne… etc. They all have strong and visible British influence along with North American-style skyscrapers.

a city that's always looking to the future and what could be, sometimes at the expense of the present.

Boy, you are so way off it’s not even funny.
I have a serious problem with your statement above. Can you give me examples of how Toronto is looking to the future? Let me give you a few of mine…

London is enforcing “congestion charges” on some of its ‘downtown’ streets where motorists pay a fine when driving through them. This helps reduce congestion, cut down pollution, and promote the use of public transit, just to name a few advantages. Dozens of cities worldwide are implementing this concept on their streets as it has proved to be extremely successful and efficient in accomplishing its goals.

New York City is in the middle of transforming its 13,000 cabs into hybrid vehicles by the end of 2012. This will prevent thousands of tons of carbon emissions to be released into the atmosphere. This will significantly reduce pollution and smog, not to mention, noise.

Copenhagen, Denmark has the biggest pedestrianized area in the world right in the centre of its ‘downtown’ where cars are eternally prohibited from entering the area. Doing this helps clean up atmosphere and noise pollution, encourage physical exercises such as walking and cycling, as well as foster a sense of neighbourhood and community among the residents. Melbourne, Australia has implemented that model as well.

Roosevelt Island (part of New York City) and a few cities in the Netherlands and Scandinavia use a technology called Automated Vacuum Collection, where garbage is literally sucked and vacuumed out of garbage bins and transported via underground tunnels to a waste management facility, much like sewage!

Cities around the developed world are cultivating a long-tem vision for the future and a mentality that is firmly entrenched in the 21st century. Toronto, on the other hand, seems reluctant and ignorant of how its future will shape up to be, but we are damn well proud of our lonely windmill in the Exhibition Place!!!

Toronto's full of immigrants from all over the world who all mix together better than basically any city in the world.

There is no way of knowing for sure that our immigrants mix better than any city in the world. You cannot scientifically prove that, it's just an assumption. It's definately up there, but we can't tell that it's number 1.

 

[Cancerous]

Look at it this way: Toronto's neighbourhoods might not have the obvious potboiler "uniqueness" a la New York-London-Paris-Munich that Sunday Painter Urbanists desire. However, the truest Torontonian, using his/her hometown experience, are better prepared to behold (and judge) those potboiler tourist-attraction neighbourhoods as real and actual neighbourhoods, rather than as potboiler tourist attractions.

Frankly, I'm not sure where you're going with this...
Are you implying that our neighbourhoods are more 'real' than in other cities?

 

[Hydrogen]

^Obviously this is the continuation of your previous trolling efforts from the last thread you managed to get locked up.

If you don't like Toronto, you don't have to live here. Take your rage and vitriol elsewhere.

 

[Cancerous]

^

If you don't have anything constructive or useful to add to this thread, then why bother post it?
We've 'heard' your point, now let others show theirs.

 

[MisterF]

I could refute your points but I'm not going to bother. Hydrogen is right. There's no point humouring you further.

 

[Cancerous]

I could refute your points but I'm not going to bother. Hydrogen is right. There's no point humouring you further.

No, you couldn't.
That's just an excuse because you realized that you're completely wrong and have nothing else to say to support your argument.
Easy way out.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Cancerous,

This is an interesting topic and has opened up interesting discussions on this forum in the past. So first off, what do YOU think defines Toronto's identity? Or if that is too broad a question break it down into culture, geography or physical form. Why do immigrants come here and why does public sentiment towards diversity remain strong here, when throughout the developed world immigration and diversity correlates directly with a deterioration of tolerance in public sentiment? Why are street scenes of Toronto, without landmark buildings in the view, instantly recognizable and distinct to me in video or print media? Or how has the geography of Toronto, one of the coldest megacities on the planet, located in an arctic nation, on a virtual penninsula surrounded by the largest reservoir of surface fresh water on the planet, carved by ravines, influenced it's form in a unique way?

 

[Cancerous]

This is an interesting topic and has opened up interesting discussions on this forum in the past. So first off, what do YOU think defines Toronto's identity? Or if that is too broad a question break it down into culture, geography or physical form. Why do immigrants come here and why does public sentiment towards diversity remain strong here, when throughout the developed world immigration and diversity correlates directly with a deterioration of tolerance in public sentiment? Why are street scenes of Toronto, without landmark buildings in the view, instantly recognizable and distinct to me in video or print media? Or how has the geography of Toronto, one of the coldest megacities on the planet, located in an arctic nation, on a virtual penninsula surrounded by the largest reservoir of surface fresh water on the planet, carved by ravines, influenced it's form in a unique way?

Hi TrickyRicky,
I have to say; it feels good and refreshing to see someone who is actually interested in debating and discussing the subject rather than ridiculing and dismissing it. I’d be more than happy to share my theory with you.

Well, in terms of topography, I don’t think that Toronto stands out that much from the rest as it lies on a relatively flat landscape and lack distinguishing geographical features like mountains or valleys. The same could be said in terms of geography as Chicago, Buffalo, and Detroit are all situated on the Great Lakes. Physical form is not maverick either; our skyscrapers look exactly like their counterparts in North America, Australia, and around the world. Our suburbs look almost exactly like many others (the so-called “Ontario-style” suburbs was never a professional/formal term that I’ve studied or read about before).
Frankly, all that doesn’t really concern me that much. Many cities have no unique or distinctive geography or physical form; it doesn’t really mean anything.

When it comes to the status and welfare of our immigrants, we’re definitely not the best either. The general public sentiment towards diversity is indeed strong, but we still have neighbourhoods that are in a serious state of deterioration and whose populations are overwhelmingly immigrants. Neighbourhoods such as Rexdale, Malvern, and Jane & Finch instantly conjure up images of visible minorities, simultaneously with crime, gangs, and ethnic segregation.
Having said that, it has become a reality of life for all big cities to deal with crime and gangs – it’s hardly a shocking matter these days and Toronto is certainly in better shape than many others its size.

In terms of the socio-cultural character and ideology of the city, yes, Toronto has an identity or rather, had an identity. Let me elaborate on that, but before I do, I want everyone to understand that I’m not trying to ridicule the city because I prefer having any identity rather than having no identity at all!

Many people are firmly convinced that Toronto’s ethnic diversity is its identity, but it’s just not!
Diversity can be found almost everywhere now, and will only continue to prevail in the foreseeable future.

Yes, anyone is able to indulge in a dizzying array of culinary experiences by cuisines from the four corners of the world, ranging from Chinese on Spadina, Italian on College, Greek on Danforth, Jewish on Bathurst, Polish on Roncesvalles, Korean on Bloor, Indian on Gerrard, to Portuguese on Dundas.
What we either fail to understand or refuse to admit is that those different ethnic and cultural neighbourhoods that make up Toronto (and any other multicultural city) are all just simulated and manufactured… they are viewed – even by their very own founders – as impoverished, diluted, and “Canadianized” versions of the originals back home. Let's face it, Little Italy will never enjoy the sun of Tuscany, Greektown will never experience the warmth of Thessaloniki, Chinatown will never acquire the energy of Shanghai, and the same can be applied to every other ethnic neighbourhood in the city…they will always lack the authenticity, oomph, and panache of the genuine edition back in the old country.
… and that’s normal!
We simply cannot be Italy, Greece, China, Portugal, Korea, India, and Poland all at the same time!!!
It would be simply ridiculous to think otherwise.



In fact, the ethnic diversity is what slowly and gradually erased and eroded the original Torontonian identity (for better or worse.)
Toronto was founded and based on a British model; previously known as York, the capital of Upper Canada; a haven for United Empire Loyalists and Anglophiles, a place where Protestant and Anglican churches prevailed and conservative attitudes flourished; the centre of the Orange Order in Canada, where things like Catholicism, Bilingualism, the American Revolution, and anything to do with France or Quebec were resisted and suppressed. In fact, records shows that until the 1950’s, most Toronto mayors were Orange and that the “Toronto Orange Lodge Parade”, usually held in July, is North America’s oldest consecutive annual parade! Even the subway seems to have been built on British functionality and utilitarianism, like the Tube in a way.

Now, obviously Toronto has changed considerably from the days of “Toronto the Good”. The old days of uptight and reserved Britishness are long gone and only a vestigial residue remains in some WASP families scattered here and there. Toronto is shedding its skin and history and emerging as a new and different city, a multicultural one like many of its counterparts around the English-speaking world. Toronto has gotten rid of its old identity.

Torontonians in general don’t seem to be very outspoken about their city’s past; they don’t delve too much into it.
In a way, it’s as if they want to disassociate themselves from it. They don’t want to be projected and portrayed in the same image that old-fashioned Torontonians were, way back then. I’m not sure how the city would have been had it not changed and morphed into something else, however, I think that Kingston might be the closest match.

Anyways, after having said all that, I think it would be nice if we can construct an image or an identity for our city. Something that can identify us and distil the essence of what Toronto is, but I can’t seem to find it so far…

 

[ParadoxHippie]

I’m hardly a spokesperson for urban identity, but I did learn something about it over the past year. I’ve spent most of my life in Toronto, but decided to drop everything and see what the west coast had to offer. Currently, I’m in Nanaimo, BC, about 2 1/2 hours to Vancouver (by ferry) and 2 hours drive to Victoria. When first arriving here, this place felt like it had a lot of “uniquenessâ€: on the Pacific, requiring a ferry or floatplane to get here, bigger mountains than southern Ontario, different vegetation than southern Ontario, closer to First Nations roots than southern Ontario, and so on. It seemed vastly different to where I came from. But, over time, I got pretty used to the surroundings. It still had those “that’s nice†moments, but the landscape became very familiar.

Watching Vancouver stations on TV, I began realizing that Vancouver also seemed to have its own “identity†issues as well. Vancouver had no official New Years events this past Dec 31, and newscasters referred to this as yet another example why Vancouver is a “NO-FUN CITYâ€. I kid you not. There is obviously a movement here that believes Vancouver has nothing to offer!

And visiting Vancouver, it does feel noticeably smaller than Toronto. But you can sense people feel the same type of apathy of a “familiar†place as anywhere else. Yet, east of the Rockies, the environment appears VERY appealing.

So isn’t part of the issue that Toronto seems boring because there are places that appear more exotic? Perhaps a little greener on the other side of the fence? There is something to be said about visiting places as a tourist, and having such a response to the brand new environment that makes you say “Wow it would be nice to live hereâ€. But that wears off, it’s human nature (I think it’s a healing mechanism that makes us get used to things, so we can move on from really bad things that happen). If you’re looking for quintessential landmarks, Toronto has plenty of things to put on a postcard. If you are asking if Toronto is a “real†city, its like asking if Toronto is a “normal†city. It has arts, nightlife, it acts like a city, who knows what normal means. But when the new-ness of your environment starts getting replaced with the daily routines of life, isn’t it up to the individual to define their own sense of place?

I guess its up to Hollywood to boost Toronto’s identity for us.

P.S. I’m moving back to Toronto. Life’s more than a pretty postcard.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Firstly, you still don’t know what my opinion is regarding Toronto’s identity, I never told you whether I think there is or isn’t one.

Oh...you are about as transparent as they come. Do you really think we are that stupid?

An identity is probably one of the most important things about a city, so, when I’m trying to define Toronto by its identity, I am defining it by what it IS, not by what it isn’t.

I think you are just confusing yourself, because the name of your game is...anything that distinguishes Toronto, you simply invalidate at will, while the same could apply everywhere else, but ignore that fact.

The fact that you keep mentioning other cities and making comparisons is your problem...if you have to mention another city, then you aren't getting the point.

Even if we decide that Toronto doesn’t have an identity, it still IS part of its definition.

Well, I think you are finally getting somewhere (in your own diluted sort of way). There is no such thing as not having an identity. It really isn't important if you don't {want} see anything iconic or pop-ish about Toronto, or that you worry that the "world" at large doesn't either. If you are under the impression that Toronto isn't "known" for anything, then you would be wrong....but who cares?

You have an unhealthy self-loathing streak, and I think your trolling is not the way to deal with your issues.

 

[Hydrogen]

… ?!
Obviously every city in the world occupies a unique place on the planet and no other city inhabits the same geographical space, unless it was on top of it!
Does that constitute “identity” from your perspective?

It actually answers the request for something that identifies this city - or any other city - as unique. The city of Toronto, Ontario, Canada occupies the space on earth that it does, and that location for the geography, built form and population of the city of Toronto is used to identify Toronto. No other city occupies exactly the same space. It's unique.

Beyond this, if anyone offers up any other suggestion concerning unique qualities, you spend your time knocking those answers down. Of course this could be done with any other city, but your actual quest is simply to vent your dislike (hatred, vitriol, bile - it's all made pretty obvious by your user handle) for the city. So, as no other city occupies the location that Toronto does on this planet, and since this location provides a unique identifying feature for the city, these qualities make it unique.

I have answered your question in a manner that you can't refute.

 

[Cancerous]

Oh...you are about as transparent as they come. Do you really think we are that stupid?

You’re talking as if I’m somehow afraid to tell you that Toronto doesn’t have an identity but I already said that above and let me say it again just to let it sink in… Toronto does NOT have an identity, at this moment in time.

anything that distinguishes Toronto, you simply invalidate at will, while the same could apply everywhere else, but ignore that fact.

I’m providing a reason and a proof to back up my assertion as to why I’m invalidating.
On the other hand,
I cannot invalidate the flamboyance, nonchalance, and Haussmann’s uniformity of Paris.
I cannot invalidate the frugality, civility, and royal versus modern paradox of London.

You have an unhealthy self-loathing streak, and I think your trolling is not the way to deal with your issues.

You have an unhealthy self-aggrandising streak, and I think your narcissism is not the way to deal with your issues.

The fact that you keep mentioning other cities and making comparisons is your problem...if you have to mention another city, then you aren't getting the point.

This is where you completely lose all credibility, and to think I actually thought you were knowledgeable!

Apparently not, because if you have ever studied or enrolled in any Urban Studies/Urban Planning school, you would quickly discover that the most essential part of your studies would be the field trips to other cities, and the more of these, the better!

This is how we learn to avoid others’ mistakes and implement their successes. However, according to you, we should ignore everything done outside “the centre of the universe”!!!

You are the very thing that ails this city.

I have answered your question in a manner that you can't refute.

Actually no, you’ve just embarrassed yourself.
Every city in the world occupies a specific and unique location on the planet; it’s a simple case of intersecting longitudes and latitudes, captain obvious.
Your answer is probably the most simpleton, unscholarly, and unsophisticated I’ve ever come across and if there was an “IGNORE” button on this forum, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to put it to good use and block your comments.

Do me a favour and completely ignore my future posts henceforth, pretend I’m not even here.
I’m through wasting my time and brain cells with you.

One last note, posting messages @ 4AM is never a good sign!

 

[King of Kensington]

Vienna surrounded by Los Angeles?

 

[adma]

Apparently not, because if you have ever studied or enrolled in any Urban Studies/Urban Planning school, you would quickly discover that the most essential part of your studies would be the field trips to other cities, and the more of these, the better!

Of course. And that's any Urban Studies/Urban Planning school, anywhere. Even in the Great Metropolii like NY/London/Paris.

And who says they don't, in their turn, come to Toronto--after all, this is where Jane Jacobs landed after NYC, and it's still got a lot of that mythical "City That Works" quality that first put it on the urban-studies map back in the 70s. Sure, other cities may have "caught up" in certain regards; but this is where it all began, and it still shows (even next-generationally; think of Spacing/uTOpia, et al)

This is how we learn to avoid others’ mistakes and implement their successes. However, according to you, we should ignore everything done outside “the centre of the universeâ€!!!

You are the very thing that ails this city.

It isn't a matter of ignoring everything done outside of Toronto. In fact, the "avoiding others' mistakes and implementing their successes" could just as well be a judicious argument to leave well enough alone--and again, that quality is what put Toronto on the urban-studies map in the 70s.

If anything, it's those mythic NY/London/Paris types who have, unfairly or not (and I'm optimistically leaning t/w "unfairly"), a reputation for ignoring everything done outside their respective "centres of the universe". Is *that* what we should be looking up to? (And big deal if it's "well-earned"--hubris is hubris is hubris.)

Above all, you seem to overlook that when it comes to something as community-based as Urban Studies/Urban Planning, it isn't just about looking outward; it's about looking inward as well. Field trips to other cities--*and* within one's own city. And not even to knock the city down, but to "understand" it, even to engender a constructive sympathy towards it. "Nobody" loves Toronto's physical fact more than the well-seasoned Urban Studies/Planning types within.

Have you studied Urban Studies or Urban Planning? Because if so, you sound terribly unseasoned, like a wide-eyed yet woefully underdeveloped undergraduate...