Toronto's and Province's New 12.4B Eglinton/SRT/Sheppard Plan

[kEiThZ]

I count 15 stations on Leslie and east, and 11 on Dufferin and west. The rest are "central".

Rather convenient to write off the rest as "central" . In the east, Yonge is rather far from Scarborough compared to how far the Spadina line is or the TYSSE will be from say Rexdale.

The TYSSE adds 5 to "west" - with a caveat I state later.

Eglinton adds 5 west and 8 east. Closes the gap somewhat, in the most likely scenario. Sans Sheppard, 2 concessions out from Yonge that's 21 west, 23 east

Add the Sheppard line that's 4 more stations for the east either way, and 0 for west.
= 27-21 for the east
Net gain is 10 for the west end, and 8 for the east, possibly 12 - though if we're going to start including the TYSSE stations in the 905 then we have to ponder whether the westward-skewed GTA - and Toronto itself - means we should move our east-vs-west end boundaries to the west to reflect that. In that case, the East definitely wins.

In reality, all three suburban boroughs are losing a lot with this proposal.

We all know what's going to happen with Sheppard. And in fact, if STC is the terminus, the SRT is losing a station, with the rest being rebuilt. The only new stations in Scarborough come from the Eglinton line. That's only a handful of stops. Indeed, the TYSSE alone adds nearly as many stops as the Eglinton LRT does in Scarborough.

Quick math: Eglinton LRT in Scarborough (6) + BD stops (3) + SRT stops (5) = 14 stops with Eglinton. 8 without.
Compare that to the west end: Spadina north of Eglinton (9 with TYSSE) + Eglinton LRT west of Eglinton West station (5) = 14 stops with Eglinton. 9 without. And we all know TYSSE is not in danger...even from Hudak.

....and that's all accepting this thesis that everything between the Spadina line and Yonge is "central" and that the Yonge line is just as convenient to Scarborough residents as Spadina/TYSSE is to west-enders.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't necessarily by the argument that suburbanites are getting screwed either. That only works, if the only thing that matters is stop count. But what matters to most riders is total trip times, number of transfers, route frequency, etc. By those measures, this plan is hardly a substantial knockdown from the truncated Transit City....unless you live right on Sheppard.

 

[Atlantis]

Why is Willowdale still in between Bayview and Bessarion?

probably just a typo, if that station ever gets built it will be between Yonge and Bayview as in the original plans.

 

[Atlantis]

And ultimately what's going to change things is not a handful of LRT lines. I will bet money that the biggest impact change will be the implementation of Presto, fare by distance schemes, and fare and service integration across transit systems. When transit is almost as easy to use, convenient and hassle free as a car, people will leave their car behind, even if oil is at $80/bbl.

I agree. That's what I saw in Paris for example. A commuter rail system and a local subway system both tightly integrated with one fare card for everything. Made planning both city and suburban day trips very easy. Eventually making GO a two-way all day service on every line, adding more logical connections between the two systems, and putting Presto into place will go a long way to achieving that kind of convenience. One good news to come out of this announcement is that Presto will finally be widely adopted.

 

[SlickFranky]

Why is Willowdale still in between Bayview and Bessarion?

Hey, at least they decided not to eliminate Coxwell in this plan. One fix at a time... Eventually we'll get something that actually makes sense!

 

[ssiguy2]

Well I think it is an incredible waste of money tunneling from Kennedy to Don Mills when you can elevate thru an ugly area. I also think the STC/Eglinton line should stay as SkyTrain to save money and the disruption of transferring the current section to LRT. Expand the stations, put in the heating mechanisms, and improve the line to handle MK11s. Faster and cheaper to run than LRT or Metro.
For 90% of the world it's a small plan but Toronto standards it's a monster.
As far as Sheppard.................if Ford is looking for $4 billion from development fees he's nuts. That said I can definatly see the Sheppard West to Consumers section getting built. The western section will only need two new stations as the new Sheppard West and Yonge stations are already there. That of course assumes that the TTC was intelligent enough to build the Sheppard West station with a Sheppard extension in mind if not part of the project.
The federal $333 million will still be a go. Why?..........because one has to remember that the section from Don Mills to Consumers station was going to be underground regardless. Infact it will be even cheaper because the LRT proposal included having to build not only a Consumers station but also a new LRT station at the subway connection itself.
$4 billion is out of the question but due to the nature of the line and the infastruction itself I could definatly see a Sheppard West to Consumers subway costing only a billion due to the $333 million promised by the feds and, only 3 new stations that can be just 100 metres long.
Questions..................was the TTC smart enough to actually build the Sheppard West station with a Sheppard subway extesion in mind and was it smart enough to design the Spadina extension to be able to interline with a Sheppard Line to Finch and the head further west of Finch..........a sort of Finch/Spadina/Sheppard Line?

 

[Rainforest]

I also think the STC/Eglinton line should stay as SkyTrain to save money and the disruption of transferring the current section to LRT. Expand the stations, put in the heating mechanisms, and improve the line to handle MK11s. Faster and cheaper to run than LRT or Metro.

Let's not forget that MKII SkyTrain cars cannot handle the Ellesmere - Midland curve of the existing SRT. A substantial rebuild would be required there.

We don't have the cost estimate for Eglinton SkyTrain to compare with Eglinton underground LRT. However, TTC did comparative estimates for the Kennedy - STC - Malvern line (fully grade-separated) implemented either as LRT or as SkyTrain. Both options had about same cost.

Hence, I doubt that Eglinton / SRT SkyTrain would be cheaper than LRT.

Questions..................was the TTC smart enough to actually build the Sheppard West station with a Sheppard subway extesion in mind and was it smart enough to design the Spadina extension to be able to interline with a Sheppard Line to Finch and the head further west of Finch..........a sort of Finch/Spadina/Sheppard Line?

I don't know about provisions for Sheppard West station. Regarding the interlining, it will be very difficult to implement given that Spadina line's platforms at Downsview are positioned perpendicularly to Sheppard.

 

[kEiThZ]

I would think any westward extension of Sheppard will terminate at Downsview.

As for using Mk II cars or whatever else. Not possible. The driver in vehicle choice for Eglinton/SRT is the already signed contract for LRVs.

 

[gristle]

It will be very interesting to see exactly how the mayor proposes to raise some four billion dollars for subway expansion.


You know this is not likely to ever happen - at least not any time soon.

 

[officedweller]

Any contract can be renegotiated - esecially when it's dealing with 2 products of the same company.
Bombardier already builds MKIIs at the Thunder Bay plant. Does it already build the LRVs there or would it have to retool, etc.?

WRT the Ellesmere - Midland curve - would LRVs fit through it "as-is"?

I think a major cost savings would be elevating the tracks east and west of the core Eglinton area (whether for MKIIs or LRVs).

 

[Rainforest]

Any contract can be renegotiated - esecially when it's dealing with 2 products of the same company.

That's true. But doing so would result in being tied to a single supplier in future, when more vehicles are needed or when existing vehicles approach their end-of-life. Many manufacturers can supply LRVs, but only one makes SkyTrain-type vehicles.

WRT the Ellesmere - Midland curve - would LRVs fit through it "as-is"?

LRVs would not fit, either. The point is that with a rebuild needed for either LRV or Mark-II, the latter does not bring a lot of saving.

I think a major cost savings would be elevating the tracks east and west of the core Eglinton area (whether for MKIIs or LRVs).

That's a good point. It seems they want to do some elevated sections where the line crosses Black Creek, West Don, and East Don, presumably to avoid deep tunneling under the rivers. But they should consider elevated from East Don all the way to Kennedy.

 

[Rainforest]

It will be very interesting to see exactly how the mayor proposes to raise some four billion dollars for subway expansion.

You know this is not likely to ever happen - at least not any time soon.

Either won't happen at all, or will be paid mostly by public funds.

It is possible to attract any amount of private money if the city guarantees repayment of the principal and some interest. They can draw a PPP contract where the private "partners" do not share any risk: if the revenue from the project comes below expectations (and it will), the city covers them.

 

[archanfel]

My bet is it will never happen. Private funds can pay for running of transit, we certainly don't have enough ads on TTC. However, it will not fund a new subway without making damn sure it would be profitable. The city can't even make the case for public fund.

The case for the LRT was always shaky. The density is too high for buses, but too low for subway. It has always based on a strange mixture of environmentalism, poverty fighting and "we know the best" city planning. A business case was never established. I doubt the private sector is as willing as our government to waste money.

The reality is we got a semi-subway for Eglinton and both Eglinton and Sheppard are spared of surface rails for the most part. That's not a bad deal.

In the mean time, maybe "long term thinking" social activists can donate their money into the Sheppard LRT and maybe collect money from all the people the line was supposed to help. Once you got the cash and the willingness to run it privately (sorry, I meant by community), it will be a much easier case to make to the city. Unfortunately, I think it's as much a pipe dream as the mayor's plan for a Sheppard subway.

 

[Eug]

Angry Finch Commuters

Curiously, the are few comments about crowding. The main complaints are speed and reliability.

 

[gweed123]

I'm not a fan of this plan. Though I like it marginally more than the spaghetti on a map socio-economic exercise that was Transit City.

My big gripe is the joining of the SRT and Eglinton line. This really screws over thousands of riders along Eglinton East. I don't get why planners can't ever think like ordinary citizens for once. It would have been far more sensible to keep Eglinton on Eglinton and extend the Bloor-Danforth line to STC as has been envisioned for decades. This move simply looks like TC v2.0 when it comes to STC.

That said, it's better than what was proposed before. And I suppose, for some riders (those bound for stops north of Bloor on Yonge) this will be a solid option. However, you're still going to get lots of riders who will incur just as many transfers as they did before.

I initially thought this too, but then I thought about the travel patterns, and how they will change as a result of this. Currently, most of the people using the SRT are destined for points south of Bloor along YUS. To get there, they need to transfer at Kennedy, and then transfer again at B-Y or St. George (most of them being B-Y). That's 2 transfers (not counting any bus transfer that they could have).

Under this plan, they board the SRT, continue through Kennedy, and then transfer at either E-Y or Eglinton West. One less transfer, and fewer people transferring at B-Y, creating a marginal increase in flow through the station. Also, this now gives an opportunity for people in Scarborough to board a near-empty downtown-bound train. How? Trains will be short-turned at Glencairn, one stop north of Eglinton West. Stay on the Eglinton line a couple extra stops, and there's a 50/50 chance you'll board an empty train.

This plan removes a forced transfer at Kennedy, it removes some pressure from B-Y, and it connects rapid transit in Scarborough with the rest of the city. I'd call this a win in my books. Also, with so many people now taking the Eglinton line, it'll make the need for a DRL that extends up to Eglinton even more needed.

I hope that, if and when, they build past Eglinton East that they interline it, and not impose unecessary transfers at Kennedy for Eglinton East riders.

Or they can just extend B-D east to Kingston Rd. Really, it's an either-or. Both will be one-seat connections to the Yonge line, and neither will contain a transfer that will force people to transfer to continue to get to where they want to go. Let's face it, very few people using the SRT in the morning are bound for destinations along the Danforth line. It's a means to access the Yonge line for them, little more.