Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[robmausser]

I know the pro subway people here will disagree with me simply because its not a subway, but I am wondering that while waiting for the Relief Line to be built in 2031, and then the Yonge Subway extension to be built after that, if adding GO-RER to the Richmond Hill line, and re-routing over the Don Branch wouldn't offer some sort of interim service to the area the Yonge subway extension will ultimately service, while not over crowding the current subway service.

It would require trackwork done to the Don Branch, as well as the Leaside Spur, and track paralelleing the CP line from the Don Branch to the Leaside Spur, as well as another track from Old Cummer to Richmond Hill GO Station (as CN owns that line), and adding stations at John-Green Ln and 16th Ave, as shown on the map, but its all work that should be done eventually anyways, so why not do it before the Yonge Subway as an alternative while we wait?

 

[Leo_Chan]

I know the pro subway people here will disagree with me simply because its not a subway, but I am wondering that while waiting for the Relief Line to be built in 2031, and then the Yonge Subway extension to be built after that, if adding GO-RER to the Richmond Hill line, and re-routing over the Don Branch wouldn't offer some sort of interim service to the area the Yonge subway extension will ultimately service, while not over crowding the current subway service.

It would require trackwork done to the Don Branch, as well as the Leaside Spur, and track paralelleing the CP line from the Don Branch to the Leaside Spur, as well as another track from Old Cummer to Richmond Hill GO Station (as CN owns that line), and adding stations at John-Green Ln and 16th Ave, as shown on the map, but its all work that should be done eventually anyways, so why not do it before the Yonge Subway as an alternative while we wait?

The problem with RER on the RH Line, which was stated multiple times already, is the curves it takes in the don valley (reduces speed), ML not fully owning the tracks (lower frequency), not enough relief/proximity to Yonge St (less connections), and the most important: not everyone goes to Union Station. If both speed/curves and track ownership problems can be solved, I guess it would be a solution, but the problem is it takes a lot of money to rebuild/build new tracks and right-of-way.

Also, the RH Line only gets to Yonge at Highway 7/Langstaff, so the portion from Hwy 7 to Finch has little benefit, which is the whole part the YNSE deals with.

 

[minilude]

The reconfiguration of RH GO is a nice-to-have thing. The ridership going to Union is low compare to other GO lines (just look at the ridership increase on that line). It is the ridership going to the middle (Y/F, Y/S, Y/E, Y/B) exploding now.

 

[amnesiajune]

The problem with RER on the RH Line, which was stated multiple times already, is the curves it takes in the don valley (reduces speed), ML not fully owning the tracks (lower frequency), not enough relief/proximity to Yonge St (less connections), and the most important: not everyone goes to Union Station. If both speed/curves and track ownership problems can be solved, I guess it would be a solution, but the problem is it takes a lot of money to rebuild/build new tracks and right-of-way.

On top of all this, there's not enough room to double-track the RH Line at a reasonable cost on many parts of the route. Most of the line is built through a park, there are parts that are prone to flooding, there are several bridges and tunnels that are only built for one track, and the handful that are built for double-tracking are done incorrectly - for example, the Sheppard bridge has room for a track on the east side, but the Finch bridge has room for a track on the west side.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

As far as "planning and design" is concerned, theres nothing wrong with Yonge North being done alongside the relief line. Ideally they will be approved and built concurrently, then there won't be an issue.

Tory IS right though, Yonge north can't proceed before the relief line. In fact, I'm pretty pleasantly surprised at how Tory has come around on the relief line. He's responsible for Toronto, and Toronto is the one with the overloaded subway system, so in this case I'd say he's mostly in the right. I think his fear is that only one will get funded - a reasonable fear - and that will be Yonge north because its in a more voter-rich area for the liberals.

“This is the most justifiable subway construction in recent history,” said Mayor Frank Scarpitti speaking of the Yonge North Subway Extension. ”

No.

This is part of the reason why I believe Tory's recent campaign "against" the Liberals is a good strategy. He's shown that he'll play ball with the Liberals, when the Liberals play fair, but also that he'll very publicly call them out of they short change Toronto. They can no longer short change Toronto without electoral consequences. The Liberals now need to decide if losing they're willing to lose their Toronto base (where they currently poll below 20%) to pick up 905 voters.

Furthermore, "battleground" areas almost always get more goodies than areas that consistently vote for one party.

 

[robmausser]

The problem with RER on the RH Line, which was stated multiple times already, is the curves it takes in the don valley (reduces speed),

Most of the line is built through a park, there are parts that are prone to flooding, there are several bridges and tunnels that are only built for one track, and the handful that are built for double-tracking are done incorrectly - for example, the Sheppard bridge has room for a track on the east side, but the Finch bridge has room for a track on the west side.

The daftness in this forum is astounding.

Did you even pay attention and read my post, or just wait until you could reply ad-nauseam with your retorts from memorized arguments?

re-routing over the Don Branch

re-routing over the Don Branch

re-routing over the Don Branch

re-routing over the Don Branch

re-routing over the Don Branch

Its even in the graphic I provided FFS.

Metrolinx owns trackage now that would take the Richmond Hill line out of the valley and off its windy route to a faster, straighter routing.

It also will take it out of some of the flood plain. The rest will be mitigated with raising the track, something they will have to do for the RH line regardless of RER or not.

Here I highlighted the image for you

Because apparently it was super hard for you to understand.

and the handful that are built for double-tracking are done incorrectly - for example, the Sheppard bridge has room for a track on the east side, but the Finch bridge has room for a track on the west side.

LOL do you have any idea how easy it is to move track to accommodate and solve this issue?

 

[Leo_Chan]

The daftness in this forum is astounding.

Did you even pay attention and read my post, or just wait until you could reply ad-nauseam with your retorts from memorized arguments?







Its even in the graphic I provided FFS.

Metrolinx owns trackage now that would take the Richmond Hill line out of the valley and off its windy route to a faster, straighter routing.

It also will take it out of some of the flood plain. The rest will be mitigated with raising the track, something they will have to do for the RH line regardless of RER or not.

Here I highlighted the image for you

Because apparently it was super hard for you to understand.



LOL do you have any idea how easy it is to move track to accommodate and solve this issue?

Sorry please don't be mad

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

This is part of the reason why I believe Tory's recent campaign "against" the Liberals is a good strategy. He's shown that he'll play ball with the Liberals, when the Liberals play fair, but also that he'll very publicly call them out of they short change Toronto. They can no longer short change Toronto without electoral consequences. The Liberals now need to decide if losing they're willing to lose their Toronto base (where they currently poll below 20%) to pick up 905 voters.

It's all fine and good so long as he can make Toronto voters forget that the province is paying for the entirety of the Crosstown and would have payed the entirety of the Scarborough LRT and that the province was even nice enough to go along with his SmartTrack charade and so on. Luckily for him, I don't think that will be hard.

there's also the problem that's been grating on me of late which is that it's hard for him to cry poor - even on something entirely legitimate, like more TCHC funding - when he's calling for a tax freeze and throwing billions at an unnecessary highway project to appease his developer pals.

Will the electorate parse all that "nuance"? Maybe not.

The daftness in this forum is astounding.

Did you even pay attention and read my post, or just wait until you could reply ad-nauseam with your retorts from memorized arguments?

I often feel as you do there in the first part but you're making the technical issues sound awful simple. Just move the track! LOL - it's easy! It'll fit right here, on the grey area of this map, irrespective of the actual topography and geography! Are you destroying all those townhomes to make that easy Sheppard-Finch fix? I see what you're trying to do and it could be helpful but it's a lot of work for what it amounts to.

All that aside, to answer your question, there IS value in improving it and doing what probably amounts to an LRT-lite. Certainly all the planning for the area anticipates both the subway and the RER. But it's not going to substitute for the subway because Leslie and the Don Valley aren't Yonge Street. Because the subway goes to Union, people seem to think RH-Union is the most important trip and then attack it on that basis but a substantial percentage will get off before then; GO is a big piece of the puzzle but a different "audience."

 

[44 North]

I often feel as you do there in the first part but you're making the technical issues sound awful simple. Just move the track! LOL - it's easy! It'll fit right here, on the grey area of this map, irrespective of the actual topography and geography! Are you destroying all those townhomes to make that easy Sheppard-Finch fix? I see what you're trying to do and it could be helpful but it's a lot of work for what it amounts to.

He's not destroying anything, that's an official Metrolinx map. Yesterday you put on your historian hat to write some nonsense about TO's transit history, now it's the engineering hat. And RER was never planned for the RH corridor, but an express service overtop AD2W using a double track is very much part of the RTP.

 

[amnesiajune]

Metrolinx owns trackage now that would take the Richmond Hill line out of the valley and off its windy route to a faster, straighter routing.

LOL do you have any idea how easy it is to move track to accommodate and solve this issue?

Those tracks don't exist any more. The city removed them and turned them into a park (the Leaside Spur Trail). So unless you're under the impression that trains can run on a paved multi-use trail, it's not gonna happen.

 

[smallspy]

I often feel as you do there in the first part but you're making the technical issues sound awful simple. Just move the track! LOL - it's easy! It'll fit right here, on the grey area of this map, irrespective of the actual topography and geography! Are you destroying all those townhomes to make that easy Sheppard-Finch fix? I see what you're trying to do and it could be helpful but it's a lot of work for what it amounts to.

Some of the suggestions made on this forum are pretty outlandish. Moving the tracks within the corridor that already exists is not one of them.

Those tracks don't exist any more. The city removed them and turned them into a park (the Leaside Spur Trail). So unless you're under the impression that trains can run on a paved multi-use trail, it's not gonna happen.

The City owns that corridor, and last I checked it's still zoned as a "transportation corridor". In fact, their stated premise of purchasing the land from CN was to maintain the ongoing ability to put the tracks back in if necessary.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[amnesiajune]

The City owns that corridor, and last I checked it's still zoned as a "transportation corridor". In fact, their stated premise of purchasing the land from CN was to maintain the ongoing ability to put the tracks back in if necessary.

Yeah... Multi-use trails are technically "transportation". But let's be real here... Do you think there's any chance that the city will remove a park and multi-use trail to build a new railway? The fact that it's technically possible doesn't mean that it's feasible or reasonable.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

He's not destroying anything, that's an official Metrolinx map. Yesterday you put on your historian hat to write some nonsense about TO's transit history, now it's the engineering hat. And RER was never planned for the RH corridor, but an express service overtop AD2W using a double track is very much part of the RTP.

OMG, you are so obtuse sometimes it makes it hard for me to be polite and apologize for things; especially when you don't accept and persist with inanities.

Go back and READ what was said: the map shows a proposed alternate route on the southern stretch. Someone else pointed out that the bridges across Sheppard and Finch present obstacles for realigning the tracks to which there was an "LOL! Moving tracks is the easiest!" So, you'll note, my comment was asking how you would move the tracks BETWEEN SHEPPARD AND FINCH, where there are townhomes.

As for my historian hat, please feel free to correct me on any point.

OR, as I requested, please feel free to provide any evidence whatsoever of your ridiculous, made-up and biased assertions and editorializing about internal attitudes at Metrolinx (e.g. they were "lukewarm" to this or "begrudgingly" did that) when it's clear - subject to correction - you actually have no idea.

Speaking of which, this is a news story and not a primary source but Metrolinx definitely was looking at RER on the RH corridor.

Apart from the Barrie line, Metrolinx also has plans to implement all-day, two-way service on the Richmond Hill line, from Union to Richmond Hill Station, and the Stouffville line, from Union to Mount Joy Station, within the 15-year plan, Mr. Ostler said.

But maybe he was saying it begrudingly, eh? Maybe it was always just a lukewarm idea.

 

[steveintoronto]

Yeah... Multi-use trails are technically "transportation". But let's be real here... Do you think there's any chance that the city will remove a park and multi-use trail to build a new railway? The fact that it's technically possible doesn't mean that it's feasible or reasonable.

They'll move it over, just as they will with the West Toronto Railpath.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

They'll move it over, just as they will with the West Toronto Railpath.

I think it's less "they will move if over" than "If someone at Metrolinx actually adopts robmausser's solution to the RH line issues then they could possibly look at rerouting that path and moving the tracks and, if they actually decide to, it might actually happen."

Though I'm sure actual planners and engineers are working on this and other things, this solution is just an idea on this board.