Ansem
Banned
Too bad I don't hear that for Sheppard...
Is York paying for yearly maintenance fees?
There are ways to be practical with connectivity
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Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Too bad I don't hear that for Sheppard...
Is York paying for yearly maintenance fees?
There are ways to be practical with connectivity
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Like The Dude said, "That's just, like, your opinion, man."
The fact that a municipality of 1 million people is already getting about 5km of subway is in no way justification for denying it another 5km; not if there is an actual reason for building the things. It's not like they are building 5 lines to make sure Georgina and the Holland Marsh have subway service.
They're not even going north of Hwy 7 for crissakes!
You've obviously never been past Steeles on Yonge so I won't belabour the point. Suffice it to say, if we could magically travel back in time to 1970 I'm sure you would be APPALLED North York was going to get two subways.
Are you joking or are you honestly unaware that Brooklyn and the Bronx are already served by MULTIPLE subway lines. Yeesh.
Mr. Giambrone - you don't need an alias. Just use your real name, please. Oh, and how's that DRL coming?
I won't keep quoting but then you start going on about other random things.
-TTC's mandate may be to serve Toronto but Toronto does not exist in a vacuum and that mandate is, simply, obsolete. If you're trying to make a case for Metrolinx taking over the subway, well done.
-TTC will collect 100% of farebox and parking revenues from the extension so I don't know why your complaining about who pays for what.
-I also don't understand why you're slamming Toronto's politicians since it's awfully clear they don't support the extension either. Like you, all they care about is serving Toronto (or at least their own ward) so why should they care about the 10s of thousands of people who help Toronto's economy by either living there and working in the 905, or working there, while living in the 905.
Very shortsighted, sir.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Ansem,
Building an interchange like that could well add more cost than simply extending the subway 2km. Tunneling is not as expensive as it seems. It's stations that are expensive after all. If you want to save money just cut out stations north of Steeles.
I still don't see why this matters. York is paying for their portion. You seem to keep forgetting this. And Toronto is paying for its portion till Steeles. Why are you so worried with what York does with it's money? If they want to spend it on subways instead of LRT, so be it. In fact that avoids the need for a complicated and costly LRT interchange like what you have above, that Toronto would have to pitch in to.
Building an interchange like that could well add more cost than simply extending the subway 2km. Tunneling is not as expensive as it seems. It's stations that are expensive after all. If you want to save money just cut out stations north of Steeles.
I still don't see why this matters. York is paying for their portion. You seem to keep forgetting this. And Toronto is paying for its portion till Steeles. Why are you so worried with what York does with it's money? If they want to spend it on subways instead of LRT, so be it. In fact that avoids the need for a complicated and costly LRT interchange like what you have above, that Toronto would have to pitch in to.
Ansem
Banned
kEiThZ
Superstar
I believe they've worked out some kind of a deal to share costs....somebody can correct me if I am wrong. AFAIK York is paying for additional trainsets and Toronto gets to keep 100% of the revenue from the stations' fares. However, given that the Yonge line is generally profitable, I am fairly sure that York won't need to pay too much. Keep in mind that a good chunk of the riders embarking at Finch today are from York Region. And York doesn't pay a dime for dumping them on the subway. All the extension is doing is displacing these riders further up the line.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Yes there are but, as someone else pointed out, those stations are expensive and no matter how easy you make it there are a certain (fairly significant, I would think) numbers of people who dismiss public transit as soon as it includes the sentence:
"Take the X to Y and then get off and transfer to the Z".......given that, and since the subway is being extended anyway, I support the additional expense of taking the subway into the burbs....even if it is not my burb.
Fresh Start
Banned
What are you talking about? The congestion is in North York, not Thornhill. Also York Region comes up to the Steeles boundary and 60% of buses that feed into Finch are from there, so yes, they'd be freeloading if they expect to benefit from something yet not contribute to its construction.
A lot of buses that presently route along Yonge Street between Steeles and Finch today would no longer have to per a Steeles extension. Not the 2, 3, 23, 88, 91 or 340 buses whom only use it as a connector. The 77 wouldn't have to go past VCC or at most the Promenade. This only leaves Clark, Yonge local and express buses and the 300 series trippers which can be rerouted to other points on the subway system such as York Mills which already has an underused GO bus terminus and is directly off the 401. In fact, as bus routes would enter Steeles Stn via private ramps, Yonge/Steeles may actually become pedestrian friendly and experience Avenueization urban growth and infill.
Another option to consider over building the $5 billion dollar RHC subway line extension is to initiate regional rail operations along the Bala Sub. This can be GO Transit or a TTC/YRT joint operation to provide headways of every five minutes between Langstaff GO Stn and points within Toronto. People desiring North York would get off at Leslie/Oriole. People wanting Midtown could get off at a new Wynford Heights commuter rail stn that'd link up with the Crosstown LRT and maybe even the DRL. This only costs a few hundred million at most and, unlike subway construction which can take up to a decade, the service could be operational within a year or two after the planning stage.
I don't see how York Region residents are losing out through such an implementation. Yes, they'd have to backtrack to Yonge Street in order to access Uptown/Midtown but the time differential on rapid transit feeders (the Sheppard subway and Crosstown LRT) is marginal in contrast to what was in place before (i.e. long bus commutes to get anywhere). This also in no way affects the planned developments for Richmond Hill Centre as rapid transit into Toronto is still being guaranteed (with far less time-consuming minor stops en route I might add!). It's the stigma that anything less than subway is no good for an area of low density that's questionable, which precisely what Thornhill is and per Heritage Community legislation always will be.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
What the HELL is with this? "Oh, the subway definitely needs to go to Steeles, but it makes absolutely no sense to put it further through York" ? This subway is needed. A fast rapid transit connection is needed all through Thornhill to Richmond Hill Centre, and a TC-style LRT can't provide that. There are like 100 thousand people in Thornhill, and there is a bunch of densification happening. I'd hazard to guess that the population could possibly double after that development is finished, seeing Yonge as a fully densified corridor, much more than between Eglinton and York Mills. In fact I think that, Yonge through Thornhill is more dense and has more stores than Eglinton to York mills right now. (not counting Y-E centre.)
I'm guessing that everyone in Toronto complaining about the Yonge extension is just butthurt about how their politicians think that subways aren't necessary to provide rapid transit, and are building nice LRT networks instead. Too bad those LRTs won't actually provide rapid transit though.
I agree, but that's Toronto's problem. The Yonge extension is one of those needed routes, and it's one of the only ones that's getting what it needs. You can't say "the Yonge Extension shouldn't be built!" just because you're mad that your own politicians are too incompetent or self-centered to actually build transit intelligently.Ansem said:
Yes, the TTC's mandate is to serve Toronto, but this is what I freaking hate about Toronto. It thinks that it's the only place in the entire GTA that matters, and that argument is totally a reflection of that. "Oh, well the extension won't be serving Toronto here, so it shouldn't be built." Definitely shows me that Toronto's completely self-absorbed and doesn't care about anything but itself. If that's the real mindset of people, I can't wait till Metrolinx annexes the YUS and B-D and manages the network properly.Ansem said:
And the only reason our system isn't like London, Chicago, New York or Paris is because we say "Toronto isn't New York," or "Toronto isn't London." We're so obsessed with the fact that we're not worthy, that we're somehow inferior to other cities and other countries.
As I said, this is one of the lines that makes sense. Toronto's not building any of the other lines that make sense, so I see no reason to not build this. Even if we were building other subway, I wouldn't agree with you. Subways in other cities aren't stopped by artificial boundaries, and saying "the subway should go to Steeles but not further cause then that'd be in York Region," is really just stupid logic.Ansem said:
3 Things:Ansem said:
1st, Paris is laid out very differently from Toronto, and it's network has had a lot of time to develop, and it's worked.
2nd, There were originally no long-distance trains or regional rail, which meant that the subways were absolutely congested, and the commute to work was very long. The RER was built to address those issues.
3rd, Paris is actually making plans to start expanding it's subway network again. It hasn't been expanded for a while, and a bunch of places are now underserved that weren't before.
4th, Paris is just one city where the subway is specifically constrained to inside the city. In London, the subway goes well outside the city limits. In Chicago, the subway goes into a number of suburbs not inside the city. In New York, PATH was made to be a subway to venture outside of the city, but is still subway nevertheless. Madrid's Metro ventures into at least one suburb, and I believe there are plans to extend it further out.
No, actually there would still be a lineup of busses down Yonge going to Steeles station. The only thing you've done is improved service to all those torontonians, and gotten the York bus traffic out of your face.Fresh Start said:
I agree. How about we get rid of the Yonge subway north of Eglinton too? I mean, obviously Regional Rail is the same thing as a subway, so North York will do well with Go instead of a subway, right?Fresh Start said:
As I said before, let's get rid of the Yonge subway and instead have 5 minute headways on the Richmond Hill line.Fresh Start said:
But you should be warned, that sort of thing won't take as short as you think. They'd need to improve track, double or triple-track the entire line, build new station facilities, electrify the line, buy new lighter, electric vehicles, sort out agreements with CP or CN or whatever, and like double the number of their drivers.
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Ansem
Banned
-In the 70s? Eglinton first of course! That's how you built a network. But looking at you praising our current network and not seeing its decades behind just because you have an extension in York is somewhat...nevermind
-Also I kind of question why LRT wasn't examined as well...
-Yeesh...read a little bit. They are thinking about it.
-Better than before, thank you
-You don't read... I said I would approve if the GTA had a rule like in Montreal that subway or not, Suburb helps pay for maintenance Infrastructure by declaring the subways as a GTA infrastructure like the Montreal Metro.
If Metrolinx gets their hands on the subway, so be it but it won't be suburbs giving a check for subway extension leaving the TTC and Toronto taxpayer having to pay for the extra maintenance, upgrading and extra personel.
It's important. What do you think will happen? The TTC and the Toronto will be paying for extra maintenance. It's fair. Most of York commuters already pay the fare at Finch or Downview. The extra income vs the extra maintenance clearly won't balance.
Wow, your mad or something. Had a rough day?
I criticize Toronto politicians for transit city more specifically Sheppard East and not asking for DRL as the 1 st priority.
A Toronto transit company and Toronto Council using Toronto tax money to pay for...TORONTO?????? It's a scandal!!!!
When is My Viva bus coming to the corner of my street?
If Metrolinx takes over or Suburbs pays for their share of maintenance, that will be another story...Until then...I'm very calmly disagree
kEiThZ
Superstar
Ansem,
I did a quick search.
http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TT...ion_recommended_concept_project_issues_de.pdf
On page 50, the TTC staff have no net impact on TTC operating costs as a principle. I assume this means, the project would not have received approval without some operating funding committments from York.
I would assume that the Spadina Extension would be the model, where they already have a MOU (see page 5):
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-3170.pdf
I did a quick search.
http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TT...ion_recommended_concept_project_issues_de.pdf
On page 50, the TTC staff have no net impact on TTC operating costs as a principle. I assume this means, the project would not have received approval without some operating funding committments from York.
I would assume that the Spadina Extension would be the model, where they already have a MOU (see page 5):
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-3170.pdf
Ansem
Banned
Thank you!
That alone makes a huge difference in my opinion in the matter. I guess like you said that it will be the same for Yonge.
I still think that LRT could have been part of the study but that's another issue.
That alone makes a huge difference in my opinion in the matter. I guess like you said that it will be the same for Yonge.
I still think that LRT could have been part of the study but that's another issue.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
If we are talking about LRT, what we are really talking about is building a subway extension from Steeles to RHC or building LRT down Yonge past RHC. I would argue that this is exactly the same situation as Sheppard East today. Would you end the subway at the designated urban growth centre or would you end it a few km short and force all those folks to transfer to a LRT to get to the regional bus terminal?
Also the demand forecasts of both the TTC and York Region show that the lines will probably exceed LRT capacity in a few years.
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=1584 (Steve's got the numbers here).
When discussing LRT vs. subway though, it should be York's interests that come into play, not Toronto's. Any LRT network that's built would be entirely inside York Region with just interfaces at the subway terminii. The discussion should be about whether LRT or BRT is better for York vs. a subway extension from Steeles to RHC (combined with some BRT and local bus services that's there today). The discussion should not be about cutting the subway short to impose LRT on York. So if you think LRT is more suitable than a subway, then share why you think its more appropriate for York.
Also the demand forecasts of both the TTC and York Region show that the lines will probably exceed LRT capacity in a few years.
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=1584 (Steve's got the numbers here).
When discussing LRT vs. subway though, it should be York's interests that come into play, not Toronto's. Any LRT network that's built would be entirely inside York Region with just interfaces at the subway terminii. The discussion should be about whether LRT or BRT is better for York vs. a subway extension from Steeles to RHC (combined with some BRT and local bus services that's there today). The discussion should not be about cutting the subway short to impose LRT on York. So if you think LRT is more suitable than a subway, then share why you think its more appropriate for York.
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waterloowarrior
Senior Member
For the record, the Paris Metro actually does leave city limits on many of its lines, and has since the 1930s. Lines 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 have stations outside city limits and some of those lines have plans to go further into the suburbs.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Should we have studied a canal from Finch station to Collingwood, too, just for the sake of including everyone's favourite or pet projects? The EA is not a sweeping study of every conceivable combination of transit projects in the northern GTA, it's a study of real options on the table that deal with the corridor in question...and it was driven by York Region, giving it a northward bias rather than focusing solely on what should be done immediately north of Finch station.
It's been explained why an LRT north of Finch would have been swiftly rejected if tokenly included, due to epically failing on almost every measure. With an LRT north of Finch, you'd also need BRT north of Finch, which is immensely silly and expensive. You can think that LRT would be a better option than BRT, but you're wrong...and a subway extension is better than both of them, so it doesn't even matter.
If anything should be criticized (other than the obscene overbuilding proposed), perhaps it's York Region (and the province?) for placing so much emphasis on developing the Langstaff area and trying to shoehorn transit riders and condo dwellers into a place they may never have naturally gone. A transit ridership base along Hwy 7/407 is being created mostly from scratch...it could have been created elsewhere, just as condos and offices and stores can be built anywhere. The choice to create a transit and development node there really does dictate what should happen along Yonge...it's not the only factor, but it's unavoidable. However imperfect the project and planning may be, there's certainly more attention being paid to regional and local issues with the Yonge extension than we're seeing with projects like the Sheppard LRT or the SRT extension.
If the TTC was driving the Yonge extension rather than York Region, perhaps it would have stopped at Steeles...if the line was extended at all.
Paleo
Active Member
Woohoo, 100% of the farebox revenues from the 10 people using it outside of peak periods. TYSSE and RHC will be operational black holes like Sheppard but at least someone saves a bit of money by not having to run buses an extra few kilometres.