Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

TheTigerMaster said:
Remind me why we're penny pinching with the Ontario Line again? We must be flush with cash if we can build this and other under-utilized subway stations on the YNSE and EWLRT.
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There is no consistent logic is how spending is prioritized.

One could argue for/against certain levels of expenditures on different projects......in isolation..........perhaps, defend those (sometimes not so much)......
But....it is not unreasonable, in theory, to expect whatever principles are applied to be applied consistently.

That certainly is not the case.
 
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Northern Light said:
That's why I would prefer a continuous build model that opens a Cummer station first, then Steeles, then, maybe Clark and so on.
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Every station would have to be built as a terminal station, and that can add significantly to the overall cost of the extensions. Crossover tracks, train storage and other facilities would now have to be built at each station along the extension. This might also necessitate purchasing additional TBMs, along with the cost of installing and removing the TBMs at each station.
 
Northern Light said:
David Haines had a brutal take on this annoucement on Twitter:

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TheTigerMaster said:
Remind me why we're penny pinching with the Ontario Line again? We must be flush with cash if we can build this and other under-utilized subway stations on the YNSE and EWLRT.
Click to expand...

Northern Light said:
There is no consistent logic is how spending is prioritized.

One could argue for/against certain levels of expenditures on different projects......in isolation..........perhaps, defend those (sometimes no so much)......
But....it is not unreasonable, in theory, to expect whatever principles are applied to be applied consistently.

That certainly is not the case.
Click to expand...

I really don't get it. The $250 million dollars being wasted on this station is likely more than enough to fix the deficiencies in the Ontario Line plan, thereby ensuring that we'll avoid spending billions in the future to mitigate these deficiencies. There is absolutely no rhyme or reason in how MX is making their spending decisions.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Every station would have to be built as a terminal station, and that can add significantly to the overall cost of the extensions. Crossover tracks, train storage and other facilities would now have to be built at each station along the extension. This might also necessitate purchasing additional TBMs, along with the cost of installing and removing the TBMs at each station.
Click to expand...

Continuous build does not envision the removal of TBMs after each opened station.
You remove them when they are done. (or Kaput)

*****

As to the number of cross-overs..........

Have a look at where they are located on the TYSSE (and adjacent) :

1626484546718.png


Only 2 stations lack them (York U and 407)

Look at the east end of Line 2:

1626484657353.png


4/5 stations at the east end of the line have cross-overs, only Main lacks them.
There are very strong advantages to having the option of a cross-over at more/most stations.

************

Aside from crossovers, you don't really have to build every station as a 'terminal station'.
There's no reason if you extend to Cummer, that the buses that now route to Finch need to move.
That's a choice, not a requirement.
Certainly, if you know Cummer was the end point of the line for 20 + years, there would be an argument for moving services which originate further north to Cummer.
But if you know that's your terminal for only 3 years........why bother?
Build the station as 'local'
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
I really don't get it. The $250 million dollars being wasted on this station is likely more than enough to fix the deficiencies in the Ontario Line plan, thereby ensuring that we'll avoid spending billions in the future to mitigate these deficiencies. There is absolutely no rhyme or reason in how MX is making their spending decisions.
Click to expand...

I want to agree with this, I do agree with it in principle.............I would, however, say, I think the extent of the O/Ls deficiencies, to my mind, substantially exceeds 250M

But that's no argument for mis-prioritizing money elsewhere.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Remind me why we're penny pinching with the Ontario Line again? We must be flush with cash if we can build this and other under-utilized subway stations on the YNSE and EWLRT.
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You mean the extension that had 2 stations cut, and where the alignment was changed to run under peoples homes just to use an above ground alignment to save on station construction costs? EWLRT is an absolutely fair target to point your finger at for being overspent, but the YNSE is by all definitions a gimped version of the original plan put forward by the Liberals. In fact, the only reason 1 of the neighbourhood stations is being built is because they're saving money by running a section above ground. If the government chooses option 1 or 2, none of the neighbourhood stations will get built. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that YNSE should absolutely not be a project to point out for "wasting money", if anything its getting gimped more than the transition between DRL and OL.
 
ARG1 said:
In fact, the only reason 1 of the neighbourhood stations is being built is because they're saving money by running a section above ground.
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That is the sales pitch. The reality is that the tunnel is no shorter than before and the original plan spaced out stations over the length of the line maximizing its benefit. The original plan was to have a station built into the bottom of a developments right in the middle of a new Richmond Hill Centre. The subway and bus terminal would have been connected to all the properties being developed. The subway line, GO transit, and bus routes from all over York region would bring people to this central core. The initial business case showed that an extra 15,000 riders would have taken the originally planned alignment and that was with both options having a Cummer, Clarke, and Royal Orchard Station included. Metrolinx's own evaluation in the Initial Business Case shows that the option they are going with has less benefit than the original plan (before removal of stations from any of the three options).

Now, there are two competing nodes. The subway line, GO transit, and bus routes from all over York region take people to a station in the middle of highway 407 south of a hydro corridor and a transfer to take one stop, or a walk that is the distance that justifies building a subway extension and station supposedly, will be required to get to the new urban core which was supposed to be the primary employment hub. The trip time from the transit hub to downtown will be longer because the path of the subway is less direct. A station is now being built at High Tech Road despite it only being 450m from the Langstaff Bridge station... if you moved the station to be exactly in the middle of those two places how far a walk would it be considering the platform length of a TTC station is about 150m? However no station is being built at Royal Orchard which is 1.8 km from Bridge station and 1.7 km from Clark, and no station is being built a Cummer despite the study showing a net positive business case and higher boarding numbers than Clark.

There is no magical savings from going above ground... there is savings from getting rid of stations, from building a station on property owned by the government wedged between Highway 7 and 407, and the strong motivation to find enough money to put a station at High Tech because well connected developers own property there. The goal of all of this was to create more development ready land at the expense of benefit to the transit user. At no point was there a question that High Tech would be included... just look at who owns land around there.
 
Curious to see where they end the 5 clark bus. I imagine still at steeles if that's the only bus terminal going in.
 
I still don’t understand the constant criticism for the OL. It’s a great piece of engineering that turns the City’s extremely bloated relief line into a useful transit service that’s three times as long for 1.5x the cost.

the PCs blew the bank on Eglinton West but are otherwise being very reasonable in the subway plans. Even there I think it’s warranted to grade separate it, it just should have been elevated instead. This line especially has been de-engineered from the original TTC plan which was similarly bloated like the Relief Line with the underground storage yard and ridiculous bud terminal at Steeles.

Cummer should be built but royal orchard won’t be missed too much.

the problem is that the legacy TTC subway infrastructure is insanely expensive to build today. The OL uses the opportunity of being a new line to shift to modern, standardized metro technology which cuts costs massively.
 
I agree: there are many great things about the Ontario Line by itself, from platform screen doors and fully-automated operation to modern rolling stock. My only concerns for that line are that the stations should be future-proofed for longer trains, and have higher frequency off the bat. My observation is that a lot of the concern voiced here is the impact its above-ground alignment has on future GO service and VIA HFR service. I can totally understand that: not protecting for the future can result in way more expensive projects down the line.

The EWCE actually poisoned a lot of debates, because it felt like an obvious double-standard, especially given the low-density neighbourhood it traversed.

Finally, I think that the the economics of the EWCE and YNSE could be improved with a lot more aggressive zoning, which of course, isn’t happening.
 
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